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  1. #4401
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The problem is that we lost a lot of excellent motivated people because they didn't want to put up with army BS any more, pushed from pillar to post, jump through hoops to get to a point only to have goalposts moved after the fact, indecision, hurry up and wait etc etc

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  3. #4402
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The re-org is still ongoing and will be all the way to 2016.. The 2013 reorg was a huge step-change for many and it has caused a huge balloon in certain ranks, which cannot be easily solved. For example there is a surfeit of Lt and Sgts at the moment with little chance of promotion from or to either rank. Yet there are almost zero commandants. I did feel that I had done my time in my own rank and was reminded strongly of the old maxim in 2013 "if you can't take a joke you shouldn't join" so that was me told. "Shut up and Soldier" ... so a year on there is work out the door for everyone's rank above Cpl , courses to support the unit in its own role . Is it perfect.... fk no ... I've heard "bagger" many a time in 2014 ( mainly from PDF officers outside our unit , mind you, not so much from the troops ) and there is a complete incomprehension about why anyone would want to come in on a weekend or an evening . But its a lot better than 2005 or before
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  5. #4403
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The re-org is still ongoing and will be all the way to 2016.. The 2013 reorg was a huge step-change for many and it has caused a huge balloon in certain ranks, which cannot be easily solved. For example there is a surfeit of Lt and Sgts at the moment with little chance of promotion from or to either rank. Yet there are almost zero commandants. I did feel that I had done my time in my own rank and was reminded strongly of the old maxim in 2013 "if you can't take a joke you shouldn't join" so that was me told. "Shut up and Soldier" ... so a year on there is work out the door for everyone's rank above Cpl , courses to support the unit in its own role . Is it perfect.... fk no ... I've heard "bagger" many a time in 2014 ( mainly from PDF officers outside our unit , mind you, not so much from the troops ) and there is a complete incomprehension about why anyone would want to come in on a weekend or an evening . But its a lot better than 2005 or before
    This.

    As a rule I've only encountered hositility from bods in the PDF who have something to hide (like being bad at their job), a friend in the PDF has told me about some of his colleagues who are otherwise good people but were so badly burned by their first experience of the reserve in the 2006 reorg and the integration that they will never trust reservists again.

    And still there are people who seem determined to poison the well from our side, a lot of the they should get rid of the PDF and fund the reserve type talkers (generally because they want the standards lowered to their level rather than to elevate themselves) are more vocal than ever, in complete defiance of reality.

    They really should just leave.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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  7. #4404
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There are far too many captains and commandants appointments, we do need some (especially in some of the Directorates (to get a voice at the table (but again problem is during the week)).

    Was the 3 or so Coys per inf bn a good idea or should they have tried to fully man 1/2?

  8. #4405
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    At ground level, the single force concept is being received well I think. The attitude among our PDF counterparts and leadership is that they want it to work, they can see the benefits but they don't think that we're practically capable of achieving our goals given all the handicaps we have. Where we have worked together, by and large there's been no big snags and we've managed to impress the PDF with our capabilities thus far.

    For me, where the problem lies is in our own leadership not understanding what's expected of it nor exercising initiative, and the complete lack of higher level support from the DoD, Gov, and MA. There's too much reliance on the good will of individuals to manipulate their own lives to accommodate the demands of the DF. We're expected to operate as skilled professionals in fields of expertise unique to the military, on an almost completely voluntary basis. And even if you wanted to mobilise any unit in the RDF it would be like trying to herd cats because there isn't a common means of communication among troops. It'll take a myriad of calls, texts, emails, tweets, facebook posts and IMs to capture everyone's attention and even then, there's no guarantee that all are available.

    If you can't guarantee the quality and availability of Reservists, then you don't have a viable Reserve.

    Despite all the excess SOs and SNCOs in my unit, I can probably count on one hand the people in my unit who are putting the effort in to make this work. Guys who are juggling unit admin during their tea/lunch breaks, making calls and arrangements while trying to hide said activities from their employers. That includes myself, who's job it really isn't to be trying to administer a Coy.

    Had we the appropriate leadership, then people could be tasked with jobs, made to follow through or GTFO. But we don't. And that's a big problem going forward. Instead, individuals acting out of rank are having to take it upon themselves to try to keep the show on the road while those in appointments do SFA.

    Finally, I have a question. Has there been an official definition from the DoD outlining what the "Single Force Concept" is?

    I noted in the 2013 review it mentions SFC in relation to the RDF only, and at no point does is define the concept. Have I missed it somewhere?

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  10. #4406
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    At ground level, the single force concept is being received well I think. The attitude among our PDF counterparts and leadership is that they want it to work, they can see the benefits but they don't think that we're practically capable of achieving our goals given all the handicaps we have. Where we have worked together, by and large there's been no big snags and we've managed to impress the PDF with our capabilities thus far.

    For me, where the problem lies is in our own leadership not understanding what's expected of it nor exercising initiative, and the complete lack of higher level support from the DoD, Gov, and MA. There's too much reliance on the good will of individuals to manipulate their own lives to accommodate the demands of the DF. We're expected to operate as skilled professionals in fields of expertise unique to the military, on an almost completely voluntary basis. And even if you wanted to mobilise any unit in the RDF it would be like trying to herd cats because there isn't a common means of communication among troops. It'll take a myriad of calls, texts, emails, tweets, facebook posts and IMs to capture everyone's attention and even then, there's no guarantee that all are available.

    If you can't guarantee the quality and availability of Reservists, then you don't have a viable Reserve.

    Despite all the excess SOs and SNCOs in my unit, I can probably count on one hand the people in my unit who are putting the effort in to make this work. Guys who are juggling unit admin during their tea/lunch breaks, making calls and arrangements while trying to hide said activities from their employers. That includes myself, who's job it really isn't to be trying to administer a Coy.

    Had we the appropriate leadership, then people could be tasked with jobs, made to follow through or GTFO. But we don't. And that's a big problem going forward. Instead, individuals acting out of rank are having to take it upon themselves to try to keep the show on the road while those in appointments do SFA.

    Finally, I have a question. Has there been an official definition from the DoD outlining what the "Single Force Concept" is?

    I noted in the 2013 review it mentions SFC in relation to the RDF only, and at no point does is define the concept. Have I missed it somewhere?
    +1

    On the admin'ing a coy, that always happened in my former coy (in the main by 2 individuals)

    The AdminO "defines" (but doesn't really) what the SFC is

    One issue I think that requires attention is amendments to DFRs, Admin Instrs etc (and not just R5) to take account of the practicalities of the RDF. It isn't about a lower standard or make allowances, it is to make it work

  11. #4407
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    @S&S it's a little bit more complicated than that. While as I have also said there are certain individuals who are just not trying there is also a vast amount of organisational inertia with the reserve sub units particularly.

    Much of this stems from a remarkably Arabic sub culture that builds up around the chief preventing the dissemination of knowledge as a means of solidifying their power base, I doubt most do this consciously but there is a tendency around senior pers to do everything themselves without delegating any significant responsibilities to the people that should be doing it, as such when people get asked to do things that should be in their ambit they have literally no idea how to go about it, and most people they reach out are tight lipped or more likely equally ignorant.

    This was the position I was in until the last couple of years when the reorg put me in direct contact with non-cadre PDF pers who just tell you what you need to get the job done.

    Another reason that turfing out anyone relatively senior (again possibly including myself) would have been a better way to go (albeit unjust for the hard working minority) is that this culture is the baby in that particular bathwater.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  12. #4408
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    My experience has been very positive. Initially there was a slow start while we both tried to work a system that will work, but now I feel I am very much part of the team, I am being extremely well utilized and challenged. I recognise that this has a lot to do with the people I am working with and not everyone in similar appointments have the same experience. Looking forward to the rest of the year.

  13. #4409
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    My frustration came about because of the attitudes that permeated the units after the units had amalgamated and some were treated like idiots despite being more highly qualified than some who were commanding.

    OCs commanding couldn't command and became account holders but went on to the back foot as opposed to making choices that actually effected people. It became very obvious pretty fast that many of those who held command were not qualified to do so and didn't know how to delegate to those who could work through the problems. It almost became the PDF of 30 odd years ago where the OC were often autocrats who were hell bent on preserving their careers as opposed to developing their units.

    Units stagnated, people could see no light in the future and made choices, which is more of a positive choice than some of their leaders made.

    I'm truly sorry to see the likes of Kermit leave, again a waste of talent, things have to be seriously wrong when you see guys like Barry and Kermit walk.If Odin is walking then its all doomed.

    I knew my contribution was finished and I was going to become a thorn is someones side and that would have been not a place I wanted to be. After witnessing what can only be described as injustices it was easier to walk away rather than be sidetracked and bored to death.

    The people who have offered an opinion on the subject seem to have hit the key points.

    So why did the 2005 reorg fail.

    It created a 2 tier system and those who should have learned from who could commit to the higher level failed to do so and drove a wedge into the knowledge base.

    How the integration model was run was always going to be a failure around issues that have been previously discussed primarily protection of employment.

    I would have done the integration but couldn't because of my employment. I could have however as many more could have taken a unpiad leave of absence where the DF would have paid me for say six months to achieve that which integration took two years to achieve. It should have been an option. The country was awash with money and it would have upped the ante considerably.

    Missed oppertunity.

    Change the conditions for the grat,fcuk around with peoples income tax and people lose interest very fast and realise there are other options out there.

    When I'm losing my annual leave and getting Sweet Fcuk All in return to go on badly run camps with units that have no bearing on what I'm doing... its time to go.

    Back in 2002/03/04 the Southern Brigade did PSO type OPs and put in excess of 300 in Kilworth for weeks on end, there was a buzz around it, 2005 there was expectation, but by the time the camps came about in 2006 most realised it wasn't working.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 8th July 2014 at 21:00.
    Time for another break I think......

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  15. #4410
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Finally, I have a question. Has there been an official definition from the DoD outlining what the "Single Force Concept" is?

    I noted in the 2013 review it mentions SFC in relation to the RDF only, and at no point does is define the concept. Have I missed it somewhere?
    It never mentioned "Single Force Concept" in the 2013 Annual Report only "Single Force Structure".

    The closest to an official definition is the repeated copy and paste replies by the former MfD to questions during Oireachtas debates.
    A new "single force" concept will see PDF units having Reserve components, rather than a parallel Reserve as at present. Reserve units within barracks will be supported by their parent PDF unit and the 16 units outside of PDF installations will be supported by dedicated full-time PDF personnel. This concept offers significant potential advantages in terms of training and development of the Reserve.
    With the DoD using the term Single Force Structure rather than Concept it should help remind certain individuals on here that the whole Single Force thing is simply organisational and not the Single Force Barrack Jacket Gucci Gear Concept they like to think it is.

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  17. #4411
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Salt and vinegar with that chip?
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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  19. #4412
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    What was actually said by the COS at the time who you think would have the party line well in hand.

    http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.ph...defence-force/

    Commenting on the recommendations of the report, Lieutenant General Sean Mc Cann Chief of Staff said:
    “I am acutely aware of the key strengths of the Reserve Defence Forces and the exceptional calibre and dedication of its members.
    Their contribution in terms of community volunteerism and military support to the State is significant.
    In order to guarantee the future viability of the Reserve, a radical and fundamental re-organisation is required in line with what is being implemented for the Permanent Defence Forces.
    When fully implemented, this plan will deliver a more effective Force who’s Permanent Soldiers are supported as appropriate by a credible and fit for purpose Reserve, as a single force.”
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  21. #4413
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    In 2005, I was posted from my Coy (that became a platoon) to another Coy. 5 minute to 30 minute commute. Both were locations outside manned barracks, the new location was further from the barracks (approx 90 minutes) and the reorganised coy had the a total of 4 locations.

    I have to say I have been guilty of failing to delegate in the past, why?:
    - no one to delegate to because (a) they aren't there as they are on the non-effective list / discharged (b) they aren't there because they haven't paraded (c) I've already delegated them other things
    - it is quicker (and I have to send less time fixing the errors)

    My sub-unit went from section plus at the time of the reorg to platoon plus within 2 years (I think we got up to 50 effective all ranks at one stage), we even got people to start parading again and apply to come off the non-effective list - if people failed to meet the criteria they were posted non-effective, when they met the criteria they were discharged (we didn't hold onto people).

    I was probably a thorn in a lot of peoples sides but I was part of a team that became a successful company because we wanted to improve things (and we did). We gave them the best training we could considering the lack of NCOs, lack of weapons, lack of transport, unreliability of some personnel turning up. And we didn't allow our coy to be sidelined (our field day applications were always in on time (1 month +), but yet we would get 3 days notice of other unit activities).

    We provided at least 3 people (out of reducing numbers) for the 2nd year of integration (it wasn't available to us the 1st year). I didn't apply, why? Because I wouldn't commit to something that no one could tell us what was involved (a) the dates of the weekends & weeks (b) what the training would actually consist of (that including in a briefing from Bde Ops).

    For me the major reason why the 2 reorgs have failed is the selection (or non-selection) of personnel, what should have happened?
    (a) advertise, brief, disseminate the information of what exactly the new offering is and where the places are
    (b) Give people 2-3 months to complete medicals (having put the resources in place)
    (c) Give people 2-3 months to complete ITs (even to grade 5) (having put the resources in place)
    (d) Then allocate people to appointments (based on courses completed, experience, etc)

  22. #4414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post
    @S&S it's a little bit more complicated than that....
    Oh I understand that it can be quite tribal at times. I find myself stunned however that the PDF on initiation of the restructure didn't even exercise primitive diligence by interviewing people for the appointments within their own Reserve components. The very presence of the candidate to be interviewed in the first place would have been indicative of that person's suitability for an appointment.

    What's done is done though. So we have to work with what we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I'm truly sorry to see the likes of Kermit leave, again a waste of talent, things have to be seriously wrong when you see guys like Barry and Kermit walk.If Odin is walking then its all doomed.
    I have the pleasure of knowing Barry and Odin outside of IMO and were they both to go, it would indeed be the DF's loss. I don't think I've met Kermit, but judging by his posts on these boards, he seems to have expertise in matters IT and networks and would again be a loss to the DF who are looking to progress their cyber security capability.

    The PDF would probably struggle to retain human talent like that given the allure and demands from the various engineering industries; and they'd certainly pay top dollar to contract said individuals' services. And yet, they could have had these skill sets on tap, at minimal expense for the sake of adequately supporting their Reserve service. I'd laugh if it wasn't so fúcking tragic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It never mentioned "Single Force Concept" in the 2013 Annual Report only "Single Force Structure"...

    ..With the DoD using the term Single Force Structure rather than Concept it should help remind certain individuals on here that the whole Single Force thing is simply organisational and not the Single Force Barrack Jacket Gucci Gear Concept they like to think it is.
    What is a Single/Whole/Total Force if not organisational?

    "Future total force is a conceptual framework for how to increase combat capability by using active-duty, Guard, Reserve and civilian forces in a different way. It is a piece of organizational change."

    Maj. Gen. Ronald J. Bath (United States Air Force)
    So the whole Single Force "thing" has been labelled as a "structure" now, giving it an air of finalisation, having only achieved restructuring the establishment to match the full strength (not effective strength) of the RDF and amalgamating RDF units into Reserve components of PDF with no increase in either's operational function, purpose or capability.

    Meanwhile most of the Western world have set the precedents for fully integrated and operational "Whole/Total/Single Force" structures for decades at this stage. We've watched counterpart Reservists prove time again that they are worth their rations in hostile environments, saving lives, earning medals, operating and innovating throughout the battlespace on par with their Regular counterparts.

    Honestly, saying we have a Single Force Structure with no single purpose, minimal organisational harmony and zero legislative enablers is frankly laughable. It's akin to telling everyone you've booked Croke Park for 5 nights without obtaining a licence first, or the equivalent of rocking up late to an international Porsche owners' club convention in this...



    Oh, and I've no interest in an article of clothing that suggests I spend any more time in barracks than absolutely necessary; I prefer to be in field.

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  24. #4415
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Swifty for minister.

    Sadly man, the people that think like you (and us) are the ones leaving in droves, leaving the tea drinkers to their Lyons empires.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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  26. #4416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Swifty for minister.

    Sadly man, the people that think like you (and us) are the ones leaving in droves, leaving the tea drinkers to their Lyons empires.
    Haha, I'm way too gobby to be a Minister. Besides, not originating from here means I've no parish pump history to base a political career on.

    That said, I've taken every opportunity at every level I can to affect positive change for the RDF, but you can only piss in the wind for so long before you have to change your trousers.
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 9th July 2014 at 05:29.

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  28. #4417
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Or you can get into a really hot golden shower subculture.

    Don't leave us just yet Swifty, the officers and NCOs that are doing things are building bridges that may yet serve to cast a light on some of the more essential changes.


    And we might also see someone have the stunning revelation that the reserve needs a centre for excellence, that parades on Weekends only so as not to be exclusive to a geographic area (asking someone to drive 100km or more once a month is better than trapping them in a geographic cachement that wastes their tallents for 3hrs a week every week.)
    Last edited by Come-quickly; 9th July 2014 at 13:45.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  29. #4418
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    But another problem - Due to the huge numbers needing to get medicals and Fitness tests done, there have been HUGE delays in both. 1 entire Bde has practically stopped doing them (with a knock on effect on fitness tests).

    So watch this space, KPIs for 2014 will not be met by a large proportion of the RDF - not due to inability but due to lack of opportunity to complete them. DFR R5 has not been updated to reflect the need to complete KPIs. Can we see the purge of unfit (medically & physically) personnel actually happening at the start of 2015. Or will we suddenly see it being put off until 2016, then 2017 etc. etc.

    Unfortunately the day of Fat officers sitting in the office doing nothing because they can't be put out on the ground as the Army are afraid they will collapse and die.... well, they may not be gone.

    I am despairing at the future of the RDF.

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  31. #4419
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Haha, I'm way too gobby to be a Minister. Besides, not originating from here means I've no parish pump history to base a political career on.

    That said, I've taken every opportunity at every level I can to affect positive change for the RDF, but you can only piss in the wind for so long before you have to change your trousers.

    Didn't stop Shatter

  32. #4420
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    You've got to love a bit of good old Irish despair mongering.

    Sure didn't we just lose 800billion on the Garth Brooks concerts.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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  34. #4421
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    Quote Originally Posted by madden View Post
    ...Unfortunately the day of Fat officers sitting in the office doing nothing because they can't be put out on the ground as the Army are afraid they will collapse and die.... well, they may not be gone...
    i bloody hope not - i've got a mortgage, kids, and a trophy wife to pay for!

    oh, wrong army...

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  36. #4422
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    Send nudes, over

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  38. #4423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napp View Post
    Send nudes, over
    pick either of two answers a) get to fcuk, b) you wouldn't be interested - she doesn't look like a Haddock thats been on the Jeremy Kyle show.

    or, c) its been some time since she let me see her nude. and much longer since the whole stockings, heels kaboodle...

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  40. #4424
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    The duffelblog, Terminal Lance, Doctrine Man et al have brought the term dependopotamus(sp?) to my attention.

    Not too many of them with reserve pers

    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  41. #4425
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    c) its been some time since she let me see her nude. and much longer since the whole stockings, heels kaboodle...
    You mean you haven't seen her latest snapchats?! Awwwwkwardddd....

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