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  1. #26
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I started this thread because it is only fair that the RDF (and the DF as a whole) accept some cuts. IMHO the DOD & the PDF are putting so many obstacles in the way of the AR that they are trying to get most of leave.

    Realisitically (apart from a major war/emergency) there is no need for the AR to be as big (and yet so small in terms of active strength) as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ollie View Post
    the integration scheme is a good idea but only benefits a few
    That is because it isn't being implemented as it is supposed to be

    most rdf bn's are nowhere near establishment , downgrade them to companies , get rid of the deadwood and useless mouths. each rdf coy should be put on the strength of a pdf unit
    That is exactly what is suppose to happen (apart from getting rid of the rdf bns).

    and give them the job of training and maintaining their reserve element....

    with proper attention and support hopefully a more effective reserve can be maintained.
    But are the PDF units on the ground interested? Some are some aren't! Maybe if they were part of the same unit they would be and weren't just there for 21 days!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The "they can't do tactics in case they get dirty" crowd tend to be RDF officers and SNCOs who have little to no grasp on reality, and don't realise that they're in a army, not a social club.
    I agree Barry, having said that many only have 1 set of DPMs (including T-Shirt). Even without doing tactics is not good for discipline or hygiene for a soldier living in close confines with others to be wearing the same clothes for 14 or more days. That is because they aren't getting the correct issue at the correct time!

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    sadly I dont see the same admiration or even a willingness to properly utilise this resource from

    the Dept-
    I used to think it was just the Dept they are only 1 element of the problem, the military authorities (as in those with brade) are a major problem but also the average soldier (both PDF & RDF).

  2. #27
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    So could that be the decision point for the cadetships?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    You need to ask was the Integration of the 70s productive? It was not as we know it today. I know there are a few on this site who were a part of it.
    I know little of it but that's a good point which you raised. There are other good points raised throughout the thread.

    Over the last year or so I've been steadily losing my RDF "mojo". It's for a number of reasons. Mainly the horrendous drop-off in numbers I've seen. An organisation like the RDF can do nothing without numbers.In a way it's good- the re-org has meant that a considerable amount of the dead wood has been chopped away- unfortunately the green shoots of regrowth haven't reappeared.

    It's not taken seriously be the military authorities because, statutorily, and, realistically, on a day-to-day basis they can't do anything with it. For the RDF to survive it needs to develop into an organisation similar to the TA or the NG in the US. This would have attractions for the accountants as pensions would not have to be paid, and neither would full-year salaries. Of course RACO and PDFORRA wouldn be unhappy but what's the worst thing they can do? Write a strongly-worded latter? Of course, should reservists go overseas as reservists, and take casualties, that would probably mean the end of the reserve as politicians are so casualty-adverse these days.

    I mentioned earlier that a lot of the dead wood has been cut away. Clearly from the amount of drinking I and others have seen here on camps, its not enough. Attitudes need to change from the top down. It's not a drinking club.

    We need mandatory fitness tests. Could something be done with the Department of Health?

    From what I've seen people who have been in the RDF for 10-15 years and are of SNCO rank have only done 2 courses- PNCO and Standard NCO. Why not give people like that refresher courses?

    I could go on and on but these sort of topics have been debated to death here over the past few years.
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  4. #29
    Faeces idem Dies Diversus Traumagod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred the red View Post
    What is happening tuesday????
    Go Mairid?*s Beo

  5. #30
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    After tuesday, no matter what happens, it seems the rest of the country will be able to continue living. An Awful lot is put on hold awaiting the outcome.

  6. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    What units are no longer commanded by PDF?
    Where personnel (either officers or NCOs) are given responsibility they should be doing there job!

    I agree with you hpt in some ways, "along the lines of PDF units" - in terms of things like standards some of it will be possible some not (eg there is no PDF Inf Bn spread over more than 2 barracks anymore, my unit is spread over 7!). You can't ask a RDF 3* to be at the same standard as an new PDF 2* as there is a 13/14 week difference in the amount of training they do. Some units can't get regular access to weapons, when they do plan something half the time it is cancelled due to other unit commitments, lack of transport etc. Also the RDF is not the PDF, we can't fit a week into 2 hours a week in terms of training & admin (eg look at the log books!)! We also have lives outside the RDF and need time to plan time off work etc.

    I've given my unit (both pre & post reorg) 110% commitment over my coming up to 11 years service and not I'm asking myself why? With get very little support from anyone (with some notable exceptions) in anything we attempt to do. Where are participation is asked for we get very little if any logistical support (which we need). All the time more work is put on us with no additional help/resources.

  7. #32
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    What simple measures are required?

    Commitment from individuals to their units to attend as best they can and to put effort in
    Commitment from unit cadres to help their units to develop
    Commitment from "affiliate" units to assist the RDF develop
    Commitment from DOD & DFHQ to make the running of the RDF more efficent
    Recruitment - Locally based campaigns looking for individuals likely to give min 3 year service
    Back to basics - recruit & 2* training, simply exercises
    Collaboration between sub-units & units to make best use of resources
    Look after people - basic things like pay & grat, communications, advance notice of courses etc

  8. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Traumagod you cut photoshop a face in there for any number of people not necessarily the Minister for Finance or WOD

  9. #34
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    , advance notice of courses etc
    +1

    went lookin for dates for a course once and was told by a member of the cadre "i have the dates but i'm not allowed tell ya" so i went and got them of people here other wise i would never have gotten the time off work,

    (so much for keepin the troops informed)
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

  10. #35
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee View Post
    I would favour the oppsite dev, that being scrap the integrated.....Those officers....... My unit has a good reputation
    I can't believe there is so much support for such drivel.

    We have the usual "Bah Hiss - Integration" claptrap with the "It's all the officers fault" followed by the "My Unit is the best coz we do Blah" crap.

  11. #36
    CQMS
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    Believe it or not scrapping RDF will not even provide a massive saving. Vote is only small. Biggest bill in military is wage bill and pensions.

  12. #37
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    I can't believe there is so much support for such drivel.

    We have the usual "Bah Hiss - Integration" claptrap with the "It's all the officers fault" followed by the "My Unit is the best coz we do Blah" crap.
    mate you know that those who have done int talk more about bein better than everyone else,

    for instance once had an officer from an int platoon to tell me to take my ahands off his "PDF" beret,

    if that isnt "My Unit is the best coz we do Blah" then i dont know what is

    that officer and the idea of integrated reserve lost my respect then and there with that statement
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

  13. #38
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbocalves View Post
    mate you know that those who have done int talk more about bein better than everyone else,
    I never heard it. Maybe it is happening up in Dublin but never heard of it happening anywhere else. I've never seen it. I know people have anecdotal evidence of it but I've never seen any.

    The anti-Integrated mafia substantially outnumber all Integrated put together.

    Who do you think has more to worry about?

  14. #39
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    I never heard it. ?
    of course you didnt.......
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

  15. #40
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    Who do you think has more to worry about?
    The anti-Integrated mafia has some individuals within it have an insidious agenda. I've seen the ugly side of anti-integration - the attacks, the harrassment, verbal abuse, bullying etc. I've seen guys abused on the street, Ptes forced out of units, people warned to stay away from their friends who went integrated, People attacked for even contemplating the idea of going integrated.

    A good mate of mine was pushed out of his unit and verbally abused because he came back to his unit after Integration. When he complained, the CO told him to shut up.
    Last edited by Poiuyt; 2nd February 2009 at 01:12.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poiuyt View Post
    The anti-Integrated mafia has some individuals within it have an insidious agenda. I've seen the ugly side of anti-integration - the attacks, the harrassment, verbal abuse, bullying etc. I've seen guys attacked on the street, Ptes forced out of units, people warned to stay away from their friends who went integrated, People abused for even contemplating the idea of going integrated.

    A good mate of mine was pushed out of his unit and verbally abused because he came back to his unit after Integration. When he complained, the CO told him to shut up.
    Attacked on the street for trying to increase their skill level!?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poiuyt View Post
    The anti-Integrated mafia has some I've seen guys attacked on the street, .
    I'd love to hear about this...

    Integration is the right way forward- but not a two-tier RDF. Standards need to be raised across the board- and the way to do it is to integrate the RDF in its entirety.
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  18. #43
    The Gaffer boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poiuyt View Post
    The anti-Integrated mafia has some individuals within it have an insidious agenda. I've seen the ugly side of anti-integration - the attacks, the harrassment, verbal abuse, bullying etc. I've seen guys attacked on the street, Ptes forced out of units, people warned to stay away from their friends who went integrated, People abused for even contemplating the idea of going integrated.

    A good mate of mine was pushed out of his unit and verbally abused because he came back to his unit after Integration. When he complained, the CO told him to shut up.

    Folks do I need to remind people of the danger of allegations like this and that bullying should be dealt with in an official capacity under the DFR.

    And perhaps Poiuyt you should have had a little more concern for your friends and reported the bullying instead of complaining here where nothing can be done about it in an official or unofficial capacity.

  19. #44
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer View Post
    And perhaps Poiuyt you should have had a little more concern for your friends and reported the bullying instead of complaining here where nothing can be done about it in an official or unofficial capacity.
    It is more likely that more could be done through here (ie. very little) than in some RDF units (ie. worse than nothing).
    Last edited by Docman; 2nd February 2009 at 01:04.

  20. #45
    CQMS coffee's Avatar
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    Docman what I was getting at was that during the assements last year out of three regiments we had stuff written like "DCs are just as capable as their counterparts in that role" and the sgt major of the artillery school after sitting in on the compulsory misfire drill lecture for the whole of 5 minutes then leaving saying in his report something akin to "that corporal knew his stuff".

    Maby we have good cadre, which we do or maby, just maby our officers are serious about the roles they have been given and go down on us like a ton of bricks when we **** up even on small things like a gunner giving a bad salute.

    The next weekend we are going on we will fire the gpmg have a basic tactics refresher from the last weekend. when the troops are gone to bed the corporals will be woken and given a night navigation ex to do in full kit (weapon, webbing and daysack). The Ncos and officers will get into bed at 05;00 to be woken at 07;00 and will work on platoon level tactics till 13;00 then its of home.

    Other units have stoped doing this type of training because of incompetant Officers claiming the risk is to high, but they are right the risk is really to high for them as if they attempted to do such training they would no doubt brake their fat ankles or skulls.

    MOD EDIT the enter key creates paragraphs, please use it
    Last edited by boomer; 2nd February 2009 at 13:43. Reason: Added paragraphs

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  22. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee View Post
    The next weekend we are going on we will fire the gpmg have a basic tactics refresher from the last weekend. when the troops are gone to bed the corporals will be woken and given a night navigation ex to do in full kit (weapon, webbing and daysack). The Ncos and officers will get into bed at 05;00 to be woken at 07;00 and will work on platoon level tactics till 13;00 then its of home.

    Other units have stoped doing this type of training because of incompetant Officers claiming the risk is to high, but they are right the risk is really to high for them as if they attempted to do such training they would no doubt brake their fat ankles or skulls.
    You must have the amount of NCOs & Gunners to do it! Having said that you probably have the amount of NCOs & Gunners to do it because you do that kind of thing.

    Pre reorg we did minimum 1 24/48 hour exercise annually (apart from on camp), it was organised at battalion level and was usually a platoon sized base camp & patrolling ex. Not everything is down to the companies. If you are a small company you just can't do it as you don't have a platoon (plus the necessary admin personnel)!

  23. #47
    CQMS coffee's Avatar
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    You must have the amount of NCOs & Gunners to do it
    we re not far off full strength alright.

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  25. #48
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee View Post
    The next weekend we are going on we will fire the gpmg have a basic tactics refresher from the last weekend. when the troops are gone to bed the corporals will be woken and given a night navigation ex to do in full kit (weapon, webbing and daysack). The Ncos and officers will get into bed at 05;00 to be woken at 07;00 and will work on platoon level tactics till 13;00 then its of home.

    Other units have stoped doing this type of training because of incompetant Officers claiming the risk is to high, but they are right the risk is really to high for them as if they attempted to do such training they would no doubt brake their fat ankles or skulls.
    This is dangerous.

    You can't expect NCO's to operate at their peak with only 2 hours sleep the night before.

    God help them if they have to drive home from the training and fall asleep at the wheel

    I'm all for proper training but the RDF try to, or are forced to, cram too much into a day.

    Why are the rest of the troops not on the night nav ex. Is that too dangerous?
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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  27. #49
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    These days, Night tactics can be done any time after 6pm.
    Sleep deprivation, that serves no purpose other than to be seen as "hard" is pointless.

  28. #50
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee View Post
    Docman what I was getting at was that during the assements last year out of three regiments we had stuff written like "DCs are just as capable as their counterparts in that role" and the sgt major of the artillery school after sitting in on the compulsory misfire drill lecture for the whole of 5 minutes then leaving saying in his report something akin to "that corporal knew his stuff".
    Again, more of the "My unit is better than yours. Assessments in the Irish Army mean very little. I've been through 3 of them now (infantry) and know that unless you get a bad report back with some good points, then it wasn't worth considering. I've seen glowing reports written about units who could barely hold a rifle safely. I'm not saying your assessments were good or bad, just that assessments can be very problematic as a barometer of ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by coffee View Post
    Other units have stoped doing this type of training because of incompetant Officers claiming the risk is to high, but they are right the risk is really to high for them as if they attempted to do such training they would no doubt brake their fat ankles or skulls.
    And you are an officer in all these units and you know why this is happening.
    Coffee. When you are an officer and you have planned this type of training several times under the same conditions, then you can come back and say x, y & z. Until then, you don't know what you are talking about.

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