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  1. #6001
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The point in the statement about R5 hanging fire for several years while A9 is updated in minutes when someone gets the hump over a bagger officer wearing an issued peaker is telling.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  3. #6002
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    I note, btw, in reading the revised estimates, that RDF recruitment is a KPI to not increase the numbers on strength. ( my bad : should have remembered they put those KPIs in there now ).
    It's what about 50% at the minute?

    Be increase 57-65% for 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    given that, and i don't disagree, i wonder what the 'drag' the Reserve imposes on the Regular force is..?

    X thousand clothing sets, Y thousand rifles to be maintained and upgraded, Z% of the Regular force working time supporting the Reserve...

    would that lot provide an Arid/Desert combat uniform, Minimis and DMR's for the overseas Bn, and a couple of extra hundred rounds of 5.56 each year for everyone going away?
    Probably cover SDA for a week

  4. #6003
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The point in the statement about R5 hanging fire for several years while A9 is updated in minutes when someone gets the hump over a bagger officer wearing an issued peaker is telling.
    They went to lots of trouble getting black berets so everyone would look the same, until they realised the officers would look the same too, and that can't be.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  6. #6004
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    They went to lots of trouble getting black berets so everyone would look the same, until they realised the officers would look the same too, and that can't be.
    Thing is in the modern era there dress regulations (until recently) didn't differentiate between PDF and RDF (we should have been wearing black berets all along)

  7. #6005
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The point in the statement about R5 hanging fire for several years while A9 is updated in minutes when someone gets the hump over a bagger officer wearing an issued peaker is telling.
    Blame yourselves for that.IE the people who lobbied their RDF comrades who also happened to be members of political parties who then lobbied the Minister at the time so that they could keep their positions and not be f***ed out simply by shelving the amended R5. That's why some units have one real RDF Coy Comdr and two or three hangers on who are SWA.
    Vested interests are a bitch aren't they lads!

    Said it before and said it again.The oath should be the same for ALL in the DF. No political connections!!!

    BTW Forgot to add that A9 was amended lightning quick RE officers peakers because some RDF Officers chinned off a direct instruction from OIC A ADMIN that Glengarries were to be worn for the 1916 medal presentations.
    Bad idea when all he had to do was go into work the following morning and click on a mouse and change the document his department was responsible for.
    Last edited by apod; 12th February 2017 at 11:42.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  9. #6006
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Blame yourselves for that.IE the people who lobbied their RDF comrades who also happened to be members of political parties who then lobbied the Minister at the time so that they could keep their positions and not be f***ed out simply by shelving the amended R5. That's why some units have one real RDF Coy Comdr and two or three hangers on who are SWA.
    How many PDF people got f*cked out over the PDF reorg?

  10. #6007
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Blame yourselves for that.IE the people who lobbied their RDF comrades who also happened to be members of political parties who then lobbied the Minister at the time so that they could keep their positions and not be f***ed out simply by shelving the amended R5. That's why some units have one real RDF Coy Comdr and two or three hangers on who are SWA.
    Vested interests are a bitch aren't they lads!

    Said it before and said it again.The oath should be the same for ALL in the DF. No political connections!!!

    BTW Forgot to add that A9 was amended lightning quick RE officers peakers because some RDF Officers chinned off a direct instruction from OIC A ADMIN that Glengarries were to be worn for the 1916 medal presentations.
    Bad idea when all he had to do was go into work the following morning and click on a mouse and change the document his department was responsible for.
    In regard to your OIC A Admin instr - yes - agreed, that particular contretemps is well known in the force -

    BUT - my point is exactly that, it is rather that when they want to , it can happen damn quick

    In relation to your first point, SWA being kept on cos of political allegiances and R5 hanging for the same reason - once again - I've never, ever seen it in the force - straight honest answer and I'd know nearly every officer in old 2 Bde and DFTC
    Last edited by trellheim; 12th February 2017 at 15:27.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  11. #6008
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    Not to be a regulatory nerd or anything..... but , R5 is a DFR and goes through all the various levels of consultation to be amended once decided... about a year, Part 9 is an Admin Instr and is amended at the stroke of a generals pen. Bottom line is the department own one and the military own the other , so they can't really do certain things all that fast....

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  13. #6009
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    How many PDF people got f*cked out over the PDF reorg?
    To be honest Dev, quite a few ( like their RDF comrades) were effectively contructively dismissed ..... it has just taken a while longer, that was the re-org for ya.

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  15. #6010
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    How many PDF people got f*cked out over the PDF reorg?
    Are you for real?

    Let's rephrase the question... How many PDF people were forced out due to the reorg? We didn't get the option to go SWA and just keep on rocking upto wherever suited us. For a lot of people that meant having to leave the DF. Don't even attempt to equate what went on with the PDF reorg to what the RDF are upto.

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  17. #6011
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    Are you for real?

    Let's rephrase the question... How many PDF people were forced out due to the reorg? We didn't get the option to go SWA and just keep on rocking upto wherever suited us. For a lot of people that meant having to leave the DF. Don't even attempt to equate what went on with the PDF reorg to what the RDF are upto.
    Equally

    Paid full time job -V- unpaid (not even expensed) part time / casual organisation.

    I'll rephrase too:
    Was there any PDF personnel who had emirgrated, been discharged or had died 5 years previously who were assigned a post in the reorg'ed PDF (which somehow had signed a form indicating where they wanted to go) but a the incumbent was posted to a different brigade?

    My understanding of the PDF reorg was that SWA wasn't allowed but there were some (few) ranks were the existing strength was higher than the new establishment, what happened them (I don't know hence the question?

    The RDF reassignment process was a complete farce especially in a particular brigade, that had decided to take it on themselves to suspend all training.

  18. #6012
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Equally

    Paid full time job -V- unpaid (not even expensed) part time / casual organisation.

    I'll rephrase too:
    Was there any PDF personnel who had emirgrated, been discharged or had died 5 years previously who were assigned a post in the reorg'ed PDF (which somehow had signed a form indicating where they wanted to go) but a the incumbent was posted to a different brigade?

    My understanding of the PDF reorg was that SWA wasn't allowed but there were some (few) ranks were the existing strength was higher than the new establishment, what happened them (I don't know hence the question?

    The RDF reassignment process was a complete farce especially in a particular brigade, that had decided to take it on themselves to suspend all training.
    I'm not entirely sure drawing parallels between the RDF and PDF reorg is worth anything here except pulling scabs, tbh
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  20. #6013
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    Are you for real?

    Let's rephrase the question... How many PDF people were forced out due to the reorg? We didn't get the option to go SWA and just keep on rocking upto wherever suited us. For a lot of people that meant having to leave the DF. Don't even attempt to equate what went on with the PDF reorg to what the RDF are upto.
    What he said.No SWA. You either moved to another unit often times a long way from where to had been serving and at often a great financial burden or you left simple as.And all we have is PDFORRA to speak out for us.
    No Dail Committees,no embedded members of political parties,no former members of the force as shadow defence minister haranguing the incumbent,
    Oh and just because YOU haven't seen it Trell doesn't mean lobbying didn't happen.It did.And R5 still goes unsigned.ASk yourself who benefits from it NOT being signed? Even the much vaunted RDFRA headshed do!!
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  22. #6014
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    I'm not entirely sure drawing parallels between the RDF and PDF reorg is worth anything here except pulling scabs, tbh
    [QUOTE=apod;448491]What he said.No SWA. You either moved to another unit often times a long way from where to had been serving and at often a great financial burden or you left simple as.

    And all we have is PDFORRA to speak out for us..And R5 still goes unsigned.ASk yourself who benefits from it NOT being signed? Even the much vaunted RDFRA headshed do!!
    I'm comparing apples and pears I know but it's 2 different ways of how similar things were implemented.

    Neither is necessarily a good way to keep and retain people. It's even harder when you receive next to no payment for it. If a PDF guy is posted from Cork to the DFTC he potentionally can get accommodation etc to make it more viable (plus it's how he pays his bills), if an RDF man gets the same posting he could continue parading at his current post (which will never have enough people anyway) or leave, it isn't liable in the RDF to travel that distance for zero return.

    There are plenty of good RDF people who weren't / couldn't be given a spot anywhere in the country due to the establishment being reduced (same with PDF).

    What happened in the ranks of the PDF where the strength was higher than the new establishment? Were they discharged? Reduced in rank?

    Did PDFORRA even speak out?

  23. #6015
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Again how did members of the PDF who had be already discharged, people who were on career breaks/long term leave/secondment, people who had died 5 years previously received postings at that expense of others?

    Did an assignment board from 1 of the formations take it upon themselves to do part of the job of another?

    This actually happened in the RDF reorg (seconded etc is the closest I can of to noneffective).

  24. #6016
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Oh and just because YOU haven't seen it Trell doesn't mean lobbying didn't happen.It did.And R5 still goes unsigned.ASk yourself who benefits from it NOT being signed? Even the much vaunted RDFRA headshed do!!
    Apod - I know just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen - for sure. But I'm scratching my head here - what possible benefit is there to not signing R5 ; there hasn't been a draft in three or four years that I've seen

    . I look at the places I know very well ; SWA (officers, that is ) are all gone and a huge swathe of empty ranks are there ; there have been two rounds of commandant's competitions and a new Lt Col in one of the Bdes; the other ltcs' are coming up fairly handy too and after that it'll be a complete change of the guard.

    I've seen the odd PQ being asked in the Dail - and that's it . As for RDFRA head shed I'd be amazed if either the chair or GS had anything to benefit
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  26. #6017
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Agreed on everything Trellheim except the SWA appointments for officers. I'd say there is still a few officers who are SWA not as many as there was definitely.

    There is definitely SNCOs who are SWA (again not as many as there was).

  27. #6018
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Ah,you would be wrong there lads.The RDFRA have EVERYTHING to gain from R5 not being signed.Until it is the old 3 Bde structure is still in place and as a result so are Reps for units that don't exist.And they keep their positions.
    No elections benefits those at the top of RDFRA also as they can't be voted out.Their is no such position as "Chairperson" or "Vice Chairperson" in the organisation.But the President etc can't be voted on or appointed for the reasons I outlined already.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  28. #6019
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    There is a position of Chairperson and Vice Chairperson in the organisation, always has been. When the position of President falls vacant between elections, one of the national executive is elected as chairperson and performs the tasks assigned to the role of president. It is clearly set out in the constitution of the organisation.

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  30. #6020
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    What he said.No SWA. You either moved to another unit often times a long way from where to had been serving and at often a great financial burden or you left simple as.And all we have is PDFORRA to speak out for us.
    No Dail Committees,no embedded members of political parties,no former members of the force as shadow defence minister haranguing the incumbent,
    Oh and just because YOU haven't seen it Trell doesn't mean lobbying didn't happen.It did.And R5 still goes unsigned.ASk yourself who benefits from it NOT being signed? Even the much vaunted RDFRA headshed do!!
    Both PDFORRA and indeed RACO have appeared before Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas before.

    The thing is is that PDF pers make decisions affecting PDF pers, and as a result you won't usually find decisions adversely affecting the PDF made by themselves if they can help it. It would be turkeys voting for Christmas.

    However decisions affecting the RDF, especially the more important decisions, are pretty much always made by PDF at the higher level. You can see from RDFRA's appearance before the Joint Committee that even decisions directly affecting the RDF and where the RDF are key stakeholders to some of the meetings, plannings and decisions in the aftermath of the 2015 WP that there was brutal communication on behalf of those organising these things with regard to seeking input from the RDF and in some cases there were no RDF invited to meetings concerning the RDF!

    It's fully understandable the PDF making decisions affecting the RDF but in any other modern military anywhere in the developed world the Reserve component would have a hell of a lot more input at the higher level and their opinion taken on board.

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  32. #6021
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Ah,you would be wrong there lads.The RDFRA have EVERYTHING to gain from R5 not being signed.Until it is the old 3 Bde structure is still in place and as a result so are Reps for units that don't exist.And they keep their positions.
    No elections benefits those at the top of RDFRA also as they can't be voted out.Their is no such position as "Chairperson" or "Vice Chairperson" in the organisation.But the President etc can't be voted on or appointed for the reasons I outlined already.
    How is that everything - who the hell cares if they keep their positions . And I very much doubt that their positions are of any interest to those who authorize R5
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  34. #6022
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    How is that everything - who the hell cares if they keep their positions . And I very much doubt that their positions are of any interest to those who authorize R5
    So.Let me get this straight.You are in favor of a representative body that doesn't reflect the organisation it serves with reps that can't be replaced because their cronies have lobbied in order to keep the status quo.? Thats OK with you? These are the people you want speaking for you?
    FFS REps from units that don't exist in reality but still do on paper have even shown up for conferences despite being discharged!!!Simply because they "were the man voted in" and no one can be voted in to replace them.

    Laughable.

    You are right though.They probably don't even register to the people who write the Regs,but Ministers DO listen to backbenchers and party colleagues even sometimes over their Department and military advisers.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  35. #6023
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    So.Let me get this straight.You are in favor of a representative body that doesn't reflect the organisation it serves with reps that can't be replaced because their cronies have lobbied in order to keep the status quo.? Thats OK with you? These are the people you want speaking for you?
    FFS REps from units that don't exist in reality but still do on paper have even shown up for conferences despite being discharged!!!Simply because they "were the man voted in" and no one can be voted in to replace them.

    Laughable.

    You are right though.They probably don't even register to the people who write the Regs,but Ministers DO listen to backbenchers and party colleagues even sometimes over their Department and military advisers.
    You're missing my point - I've never seen any evidence of lobbying . Do they do anything for us; sometimes they have, yes. Most of the time I slag them off and for good reason but they've never to my knowledge held R5 up
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  37. #6024
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Ah,you would be wrong there lads.The RDFRA have EVERYTHING to gain from R5 not being signed.Until it is the old 3 Bde structure is still in place and as a result so are Reps for units that don't exist.And they keep their positions.
    No elections benefits those at the top of RDFRA also as they can't be voted out.Their is no such position as "Chairperson" or "Vice Chairperson" in the organisation.But the President etc can't be voted on or appointed for the reasons I outlined already.
    AFAIK RDFRA submitted a new Constitution to C&A Branch about 3-5 years ago. Also AFAIK they are still waiting for it to be signed off.

  38. #6025
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    AFAIK RDFRA submitted a new Constitution to C&A Branch about 3-5 years ago. Also AFAIK they are still waiting for it to be signed off.
    Can't be signed off until R5 is.Chicken and egg
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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