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  1. #6201
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    Blaming R5 for the reserve not achieving it needs to do shows their lack of knowledge about what R5 contains. R5 deals with Enlistment, promotion, commissioning, conditions of service, discipline, discharge, pay. Most PDF when complaining about the constraints in using reservists point to the inability to apply the same discipline process as the PDF (even though R5 specifically states that it applies) or not being able to call up reservists (when it is the Defence Acts that determines this). The only thing that someone in the PDF might complain about is the fact that while the Minister can authorise a reservist to perform security duties and the GOC/Flag officer can authorise a reservist to perform ATCA duties it is with their own (the reservist) consent. Another common complaint is the authority/subject to military law criteria which is all contained in the Defence Acts not R5.

    R5 is a very reasonable and workable document, it is a pity that no-one actually uses it.

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  3. #6202
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    R5 is not fit for purpose in many aspects.

    Eg
    chains of command and appointments that haven't existed for coming up to 4 years
    Arguably training obligations
    Non effective list ref the White Paper
    Transfers from PDF/FLR to SLR
    Units that don't exist
    Unit funds

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  5. #6203
    CQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Speaking to you from FTT

    I'm doing most of what I do in work and helping the DF where they are savagely short . Every officer I've met supports what we're doing . A conversation at breakfast from PDF officers was about how crap R5 was from achieving what the reserve needs to do . SFC is out there. Week 2 of 3 for the year nearly done. What a difference from other years.
    Sounds like you are having a very different year of it from your perspective. Any other changes you've noticed?

  6. #6204
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    R5 is not fit for purpose in many aspects.

    Eg
    chains of command and appointments that haven't existed for coming up to 4 years
    Arguably training obligations
    Non effective list ref the White Paper
    Transfers from PDF/FLR to SLR
    Units that don't exist
    Unit funds
    Don't mix up R5 with Admin R5. There is very little that needs to be changed in R5.

    There are some but not a lot of references to the position of OC Reserve Bde & OC Shore Operations but not a lot. The regulation doesn't name any units so references to Officer Commanding the Unit is applicable to the new order, it also refers to GOC Brigades collectively so is applicable to the 2 Bde structure.

    The childrens allowance section will soon become obsolete as those enlisted before 1 January 1979 should be nearly all retired by now but there are probably a few still around. The 2 sections dealing with unit grants, mileage, unit funds etc and gratuities can go.

    Otherwise the rest of the regulation is fine. The FLR still exists and there is no plan to remove it from the legislation so you still need procedures for people transferring between the two classes of reserve. The only training obligations are the minimum set down to allow a reservist be effective. The KPIs are just that KPIs, targets to achieve not to be confused with minimum standards. I have KPIs at work, I won't necessarily get fired if I do not achieve all of them but it will impact on promotion and pay. The White Paper is not a regulation, it is an aspiration.

  7. #6205
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Don't mix up R5 with Admin R5. There is very little that needs to be changed in R5.
    I'm not, during that post I was going through DFR R5 start to finish.

    Of course (a) a Defence (Amendment) Act is required (b) DFR R5 needs amending (c) Admin Instr R5 needs amending, in that order

    There are some but not a lot of references to the position of OC Reserve Bde & OC Shore Operations but not a lot.
    but important
    The regulation doesn't name any units
    incorrect

    The childrens allowance section will soon become obsolete as those enlisted before 1 January 1979 should be nearly all retired by now but there are probably a few still around. The 2 sections dealing with unit grants, mileage, unit funds etc and gratuities can go.
    +1

    Otherwise the rest of the regulation is fine. The FLR still exists and there is no plan to remove it from the legislation so you still need procedures for people transferring between the two classes of reserve. The only training obligations are the minimum set down to allow a reservist be effective. The KPIs are just that KPIs, targets to achieve not to be confused with minimum standards. I have KPIs at work, I won't necessarily get fired if I do not achieve all of them but it will impact on promotion and pay. The White Paper is not a regulation, it is an aspiration.[/QUOTE]i agree with some of this.

    The WP is policy

  8. #6206
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The WP is policy
    Ha!!

    Lets have this conversation again when the WP period ends and there is all those incomplete tasks.

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  10. #6207
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are having a very different year of it from your perspective. Any other changes you've noticed?
    Just a huge amount of work to be done, is all really. I'm in a different niche these days.

    At the moment there's a large deficit of young Sgts and officers to run with the dogs ; there's no sign of this changing for a long time.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  12. #6208
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The WP is policy
    Oh boy.


  13. #6209
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    you are mixing up policy with reality I think.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  14. #6210
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Policy is policy, implementation is the issue

  15. #6211
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    The 2015 White Paper, in the context of the RDF isn't policy. It is an exercise in demonstrating process without delivering any substance. No one will be held to account for not meeting supposed policy objectives.

  16. #6212
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Policy is policy, implementation is the issue
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    The 2015 White Paper, in the context of the RDF isn't policy. It is an exercise in demonstrating process without delivering any substance. No one will be held to account for not meeting supposed policy objectives.
    Incorrect.Under WP15 each policy objective is managed by a Project team. The project manager for each project will be answerable and has to file regular WRD returns(work reference documents.All available on the SPB site on IKON) which are briefed to the General staff at each CoS/GS conference on their progress.Also seeing as the overall WP project management team is joint DoD/DF it will be impossible to hide.
    Last edited by apod; 4th September 2017 at 18:09.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  18. #6213
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Incorrect.Under WP15 each policy objective is managed by a Project team. The project manager for each project will be answerable and has to file regular WRD returns(work reference documents.All available on the SPB site on IKON) which are briefed to the General staff at each CoS/GS conference on their progress.Also seeing as the overall WP project management team is joint DoD/DF it will be impossible to hide.
    This was my understanding as well. It might be fair to say that - as I said above -- policy does not mean execution. Any PDF senior officer I've talked to in the last month has been very supportive of RDF objectives ( NS, AC and Army )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  20. #6214
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Incorrect.
    I'll believe it when the first "suitably qualified" infantry reservists, whose "personal circumstances that allow them to do so" are serving overseas.

    Everything else you just mentioned is a continuation of process for process' sake. Yes, there's a hive of activity in the DF/DOD, but what is actually being delivered to the RDF that can be directly attributed to WP15? Specialist Reserve? Overseas? Populating the establishment?

    It's just a talking shop.

  21. #6215
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I'll believe it when the first "suitably qualified" infantry reservists, whose "personal circumstances that allow them to do so" are serving overseas.

    Everything else you just mentioned is a continuation of process for process' sake. Yes, there's a hive of activity in the DF/DOD, but what is actually being delivered to the RDF that can be directly attributed to WP15? Specialist Reserve? Overseas? Populating the establishment?

    It's just a talking shop.

    You'd be surprised what is being worked on

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  23. #6216
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The reserve is not high on the list of priorities at the moment but that will not change and has not changed.

    In the current lineup PDF are trying to get overseas. Why send a reservist when there's no shortage of fulltimers who need it for their contracts ? There are several people working in roles at the moment that are non-traditional RDF and results have been largely positive for the PDF - some capabiities have improved.

    This has required courage on both sides to see things through but it is working.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  25. #6217
    CQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The reserve is not high on the list of priorities at the moment but that will not change and has not changed.

    In the current lineup PDF are trying to get overseas. Why send a reservist when there's no shortage of fulltimers who need it for their contracts ? There are several people working in roles at the moment that are non-traditional RDF and results have been largely positive for the PDF - some capabiities have improved.

    This has required courage on both sides to see things through but it is working.
    So basically if reservists do get overseas, it would only be for those with specialist skills? Makes perfect sense to me. Can't see why an infantry reservist would get sent overseas anyway. If someone is looking for that experience, they should have joined the PDF.

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  27. #6218
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    So basically if reservists do get overseas, it would only be for those with specialist skills? Makes perfect sense to me. Can't see why an infantry reservist would get sent overseas anyway. If someone is looking for that experience, they should have joined the PDF.
    Agreed.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  29. #6219
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    In the current reality, I agree too.
    In an ideal world where you want a capable reserve force and operated an integrated reserve, I'd sent whole units, complete with some of their reserve component, so your units actually work together and your part timers include people you know you can trust.
    But we don't live in that world.

    To add: I've been out of the country and the reserve for thirteen years. I followed with interest the early news of the integrated reserve, only to read of it withering.
    The old FCA was theoretically a surge force. Poor training, but a significant body. At least once in it's history it provided a surge force for the PDF. Many of them stayed on. From what I can tell now?
    The current reserve is tiny, providing little besides barracks security, as before, but now in effective numbers which could be matched by a year of concerted recruitment to the PDF. Contains better trained and equipped bodies, but to what end? So three or four of them might serve overseas for a couple of months or thirty or forty might take over regimental duties for a couple of weeks?
    This is what I can tell from here, at least.

    So...quo vadis?
    And why?
    Last edited by expat01; 11th September 2017 at 15:50.

  30. #6220
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    You need to view things in context ; look at the sizes of the GS recruitment and Cadet classes about to get underway ..
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  31. #6221
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    You need to view things in context ; look at the sizes of the GS recruitment and Cadet classes about to get underway ..
    Can't speak for the AGS intake (one of my RDF former colleagues is on that intake), but the Cadet intake (in 2 weeks now, only recently discovered a son of one of our neighbours is in that class) is similarly sized to last year's as will be next year's, from what I heard
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  32. #6222
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Can't speak for the AGS intake (one of my RDF former colleagues is on that intake), but the Cadet intake (in 2 weeks now, only recently discovered a son of one of our neighbours is in that class) is similarly sized to last year's as will be next year's, from what I heard

    The incoming clsss is bigger

    Be interesting to see the PDF officer strength versus establishment in a recent Dail question. Are Lts leaving (partially) because they aren't getting Capt when Lts are over establishment but There are vacancies for Capt & Comdt

  33. #6223
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The reserve is not high on the list of priorities [...]

    [...]There are several people working in roles at the moment that are non-traditional RDF and results have been largely positive for the PDF - some capabiities have improved. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    So basically if reservists do get overseas, it would only be for those with specialist skills? Makes perfect sense to me. Can't see why an infantry reservist would get sent overseas anyway. If someone is looking for that experience, they should have joined the PDF.
    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Agreed.
    Well it does make perfect sense that infantry reservists are the resource of absolute last resort when there are PDF contractual obligations and duty pay at stake. Besides, PDF infantry trumps RDF infantry hands down, right?

    It also makes perfect sense that the only reservists with any degree of operational utility are those with specialist skills.

    The question is, why then did they build a post-VFM model RDF to be 74% infantry heavy when it seems so widely accepted before and indeed afterwards that RDF infantry are as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest?

    Why would anyone want to be an infantry reservist if the organisation and culture is so prejudice against you, doesn't recognise your rank or reserve military qualifications and you have absolutely no hope of ever putting your training to use?

    Well at least there's the RDF specialists, whose skills in Medicine, Engineering, and ICT are so valuable to us that the DOD is willing to use them on an "unpaid voluntary capacity". That is until the DOD can craft out WP15's much coveted "Specialist Reserve" AKA "Extra Pension for Retention" Troop. It'll be interesting to see how the DOD square that circle, having a specialist reserve where ex-PDF who can continue to accrue a pension are mixed in with RDF SMEs who are barely paid at all.


  34. #6224
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Let's remember the infantry battalion is only brought up to correct establishment by the RDF. Of course the RDF is undermanned. When an infantry battalion is a lead unit receives a tasking (be it a GoH, lead unit UNDOF, etc), potentially the Bn Comd can call on his RDF elements to contribute to that taskings (or backfill duties and other taskings etc), it doesn't need to be a sexy overseas tasking. The same applies to corps units.

    Potentially you could be a RDF infantryman overseas. Of course, that RDF infantryman could be a carpenter and filling a vacancy in Engr Pln. However, why would you select RDF if there is an excess of PDF applications. Of course, for some positions they may not be able to fill them and then you get less notice which makes it harder on the reservist. It may possibly suit the family friendly appointments.

    Watch this space on Specialist Reserve but it may not be what some are thinking it will be. Attempts are being made to fill RDF establishment, there is a revised s/clearance process and a recruitment competition closed last week.

    Mark my words as things have got worse (in the PDF) the PDF are appreciating the RDF, we can contribute in meaningful ways, even if just duties. The problems are now our numbers and availability, and the constant issue with orders and decisions that take no regard to the impacts on the RDF (2 steps forward 1 step back).

  35. #6225
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    If there is a fundamental lack of understanding of what the PDF is, needs and should be, we can hardly expect anything but woolly thinking about the RDF the few times per decade anyone in the department thinks of it at all.

    Also, we can hardly expect the PDF to be truly committed to working with the RDF when the department that controls them treats the PDF itself as a glorified reserve. Our basic problem is that the DoD does not take its own job seriously, or even acts as if it is a gatekeeper to preventing militarism. Which it surely was in the 1920s...but nothing has changed since.
    Last edited by expat01; 12th September 2017 at 07:48.

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