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  1. #101
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    the RDF is a big waste of time and money

    your not being utilised properly - and probably never will be

    do we really need a Reserve

    who have not been given a clearly defined role

    lets get rid of it resulting in

    1- saving a lot of omeny

    2-freeng up valauble (ha) cadre staff

    3-giiving you lads back your free time and the chance to go somewhere that actually appreicates your time and effort

    its a pity- but lets give it a dignified ending and put it out of its misery

    what do you lads think
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  2. #102
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Or refocus and put it on a proper footing.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  3. #103
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    1- RDF doesn't cost that much in the greater scheme of things. Though as the unofficial recruitment division of the Defence Forces its probably spending more than it should.

    2- Where would PDF units put their unwanted personnel then?
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  4. #104
    Faeces idem Dies Diversus Traumagod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    the RDF is a big waste of time and money

    your not being utilised properly - and probably never will be

    do we really need a Reserve

    who have not been given a clearly defined role

    lets get rid of it resulting in

    1- saving a lot of omeny

    2-freeng up valauble (ha) cadre staff

    3-giiving you lads back your free time and the chance to go somewhere that actually appreicates your time and effort

    its a pity- but lets give it a dignified ending and put it out of its misery

    what do you lads think
    Seriously Hedgehog! I respect and agree with about 90% of what you say but you really want to know what I think of your suggestion here???????????????

    I would without a shadow of a doubt be booted from the forum if I told you. Sorry but thats my opinion.
    Go Mairid?*s Beo

  5. #105
    Der Wustenfuchs Rommel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    the RDF is a big waste of time and money

    your not being utilised properly - and probably never will be

    do we really need a Reserve

    who have not been given a clearly defined role

    lets get rid of it resulting in

    1- saving a lot of omeny

    2-freeng up valauble (ha) cadre staff

    3-giiving you lads back your free time and the chance to go somewhere that actually appreicates your time and effort

    its a pity- but lets give it a dignified ending and put it out of its misery

    what do you lads think
    BEST POST IN 5 YEARS. That took balls to say. You have hit the nail on the head.

    Lads, if we are really honest with ourselves, deep deep down, you know that he is right.
    - The longer you stay in the more you will realise it
    Last edited by Rommel; 9th February 2009 at 01:44.
    "In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it." Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel

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  7. #106
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    BEST POST IN 5 YEARS. That took balls to say. You have hit the nail on the head.

    Lads, if we are really honest with ourselves, deep deep down, you know that he is right.
    - The longer you stay in the more you will realise it
    Welcome back rommel. We missed you.

    But a very quick way to reduce the DF Wage bill by 3%(or more) without a reduction in services provided is to disband the RDF.
    These days everyone needs to provide a quantifiable return for their budget allocation. Read any DF Annual report to see what I mean.

    Reserve Defence Forces (RDF)
    The primary task of the RDF in peacetime is to train for contingency tasks. This was the
    second year of the establishment of the non-integrated reserve and there were significant
    advancements in the areas of administration and training. The main output was the
    completion of an audit in November 2007 of the first two years of force development.
    This audit is consistent with the recommendations of the Reserve Defence Force Review
    Implementation Board Report (RDFRIBR). The audit measures progress to date and
    makes recommendations to develop the force to 2011, in line with the recommendations
    contained in the White Paper on Defence.
    RDF Financial Administrative Instruction R5 was completed and a new promotion
    system from Captain to Commandant was introduced during 2007. The General Purpose
    Machine Gun and the H&K Universal Self-Loading Pistol were introduced to the RDF.
    A Distance Learning Working Group continued its task of preparing elements of syllabi
    for delivery through this medium.
    The RDF strength was reduced over the course of the year from 9,134 on 1 January 2007,
    to 8,408 on 31 December 2007, due mainly to the discharge of non-effective personnel.
    The Director of Reserve Forces prepared a new strategic training development plan (TI
    02/2007) for non-integration RDF training for the period 2007–2009.
    http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/p...Report07en.pdf

    Taxpayer says "great, but what have you done for ME lately?"

  8. #107
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    On a serious note before the hysterics get going on the FCA/RDF side and the PDF start nodding heads sagely,

    the PWC report and White Paper to 2010 both recommended a reserve. it is still government policy. We are waiting for the new White Paper [ flagged by the Government as discussions happening with the 'stakeholders' last week - see Minister's Questions on Wednesday [ written and Oral ].

    I'd be wary of what I wished for here on the PDF side, because it looks as if the 1st line reserve being an active one is out of the box again.

    We can't 'Give it a dignified ending' - only the Government can choose to stand down a component of its Defence Forces. Until then it's extremely encouraging for our line PDF colleagues to recommend disbandment and shows hope and promise in our continued working relationship.

    Such as it is.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  9. #108
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traumagod View Post
    Seriously Hedgehog! I respect and agree with about 90% of what you say but you really want to know what I think of your suggestion here???????????????

    I would without a shadow of a doubt be booted from the forum if I told you. Sorry but thats my opinion.
    work away

    I posted it in the firm knowledge that I am not going to win

    the IMO all round guy of the year award for that opinion

    but as it stands the RDF is sadly a waste of tax payers money and your time

    that time and effort can be invested in so many valuable things for the community

    the same with the monies involved

    IWhen I call for the disbandment of the RDF its not because of any fault on your behalf rather

    the oppisite

    the PDF failed to use probably one of the most valuable assets they had

    therefore fkuc them and fluc them royally

    why should taxpayers money be spent on whats simply used as a folly

    why should your weekends- tuesdays- thursdays be spent away form the kids

    as a mere sop to the notion that look how great we as are sure we support

    our gallant RDF ers

    we all know that is a big fat lie


    now as Soldiers we can sit back and say Hedgehog is an asshole (frequently said)

    or we can discuss this and then come tot he conxlusion that I am an asshole



    Traumagod

    your the worlds biggest jessie- never be afraid to take me on- I like a good insult
    I can hardly go running tot he mods and say TG insulted me- have you seen some of the gick I have said about people on here
    I am still suprised I havent as yet been lynched

    come on big girls blouse
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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  11. #109
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    While phasing out the reserve might make financial sense, politially it would be difficult, as lots of intrest groups would be violently opposed. Campaigns would be launched, former reservists would be on local radio talking about the good old days when they were using lee enfields and the social benefits of giving young people something to do, etc which would cause the back benchers to question government policy. The amount spent on the reserve is small amount of the total that the tax payer wastes for political reasons, and I can't see that stopping.

    I think though it might loose its artillery units, and other combat support service units and become solely an infantry force.

    As for the PDF, the next white paper will be intresting. Keeping the three brigade structure will be difficult, given the end of the IRA campaign and the lack of an external threat. Furthermore, the main cost of the defence forces has always the army's wage bill and pensions, and that is where defence spending goes, the temptation will be to reduce that. Most european armies now have a smaller structure than ireland, (Sweden has just reduced its army to eight combat battalions). Expect to see the same.
    Last edited by paul g; 9th February 2009 at 16:44.

  12. #110
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    While phasing out the reserve might make financial sense, politially it would be difficult, as lots of intrest groups would be violently opposed. Campaigns would be launched, former reservists would be on local radio talking about the good old days when they were using lee enfields and the social benefits of giving young people something to do, etc which would cause the back benchers to question government policy. The amount spent on the reserve is small amount of the total that the tax payer wastes for political reasons, and I can't see that stopping.

    I think though it might loose its artillery units, and other combat support service units and become solely an infantry force.

    As for the PDF, the next white paper will be intresting. Keeping the three brigade structure will be difficult, given the end of the IRA campaign and the lack of an external threat. Furthermore, the main cost of the defence forces has always the army's wage bill and pensions, and that is where defence spending goes, the temptation will be to reduce that. Most european armies now have a smaller structure than ireland, (Sweden has just reduced its army to eight combat battalions). Expect to see the same.


    I would have thought the opposite.

    That the Infantry battalions would be dissolved and we would be reformed as part of the CS or CSS units in the DF.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  13. #111
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I think though it might loose its artillery units, and other combat support service units and become solely an infantry force.
    Really ? I would lean in the opposite direction, CS and CSS units would be much more logical in a reserve versus an entirely Infantry reserve.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  14. #112
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Hey, Why don't we go all the way and disband the RDF & The PDF. Turn the NS & AC into a Coast Guard. Makes the most sense financially.

    Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.

  15. #113
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    [QUOTE=Docman;238437]Hey, Why don't we go all the way and disband the RDF & The PDF. Turn the NS & AC into a Coast Guard. Makes the most sense financially.

    Don't say it aloud, its the option the department of finance favoured in the last white paper.

    As for the reserve loosing its CS units, well the PDF will increase its expeditionary focus, then having the majority of CS units reservists will limit its flexibility. Peace support missions are becoming more robust and it the last seven years have show anything its the importance of engineers, and other specialised units like EOD. IMHO, the army should rebalance, towards having fewer, but better equipped units, and develop its capability in areas like area and route clearance.

  16. #114
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.
    Except that the PDF actually DO STUFF.

  17. #115
    Colonel johnny no stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post

    Lads, if we are really honest with ourselves, deep deep down, you know that he is right.
    - The longer you stay in the more you will realise it
    The longer you're away the more you realise it too. Aside from enjoying it or anything sentimental, look objectively. People here are crying to get rid of sail training programmes. Something that's actually productive. I'd rather see the RDF (which is NOT an investment in the youth of the country) go rather than useful projects that are capeable of actually MAKING money.
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

  18. #116
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.
    care to back this up....
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

  19. #117
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    again with the sail training

    my eldest girl does horse riding

    every weekend she shovels shit for 4 hours just

    to ride a horse for an hour- she lives for it and is passionate about horses

    the stables she attends has about 40 kids a saturday vying for places to shovel shit

    and wash saddles and tackles etc

    I am sure that there are hundreds of stables around the country with the same queue of

    working class kids- dying to ride a big horse.

    now why should nt my girl get a subsidised holdiay getting experience in her hobby

    why should those from the traditional Yahting fraternity get the bobs


    People here are crying to get rid of sail training programmes.
    rich kids daddies and mammies should pay there own way


    go rather than useful projects that are capeable of actually MAKING money.
    if it actually makes money then

    why are we arguing- lets raise it and have 4 more vessels

    but wait we know that in the budget

    it is a loss making vessel
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  20. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    Hey, Why don't we go all the way and disband the RDF & The PDF. Turn the NS & AC into a Coast Guard. Makes the most sense financially.

    Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.

    agreed!

  21. #119
    Faeces idem Dies Diversus Traumagod's Avatar
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    Ah lads what will i do on thursday nights!!! And two sundays a month!!!! HH I dont like horses so dont suggest i go shovelling shit thank you very much!!
    Go Mairid?*s Beo

  22. #120
    Colonel johnny no stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    again with the sail training

    my eldest girl does horse riding

    every weekend she shovels shit for 4 hours just

    to ride a horse for an hour- she lives for it and is passionate about horses

    the stables she attends has about 40 kids a saturday vying for places to shovel shit

    and wash saddles and tackles etc

    I am sure that there are hundreds of stables around the country with the same queue of

    working class kids- dying to ride a big horse.

    now why should nt my girl get a subsidised holdiay getting experience in her hobby

    why should those from the traditional Yahting fraternity get the bobs




    rich kids daddies and mammies should pay there own way




    if it actually makes money then

    why are we arguing- lets raise it and have 4 more vessels

    but wait we know that in the budget

    it is a loss making vessel
    Fair play to her. Yes, she should get a subsidised camp.
    Her interest is in horses, plenty of working class kids love sailing but can't afford to buy the wetsuits, boots, boat, trailer, new sails, sail repair kits, spare parts, lifejackets, paraphrenalia etc etc etc.

    Hedgehog, believe it or not, I was agreeing with the post you made in this thread.

    THe RDF IS a waste of money. It does NOT serve any purpose. Get rid of it and you could have your subsidised camp for your daughter and hell, send them on a STV when they're older if they show an interest.
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

  23. #121
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Fair play to her. Yes, she should get a subsidised camp.

    I disagree

    how will she ever learn the value of work if she gets it for free

    she works her fingers to the bone and enjoys the rewards

    if she got it for nothing then there would be no effort in it and therefore no reward

    this is her lesson for life to come


    Hedgehog, believe it or not, I was agreeing with the post you made in this thread

    I am so used to being the sole voice of reason in this shop that I just take for granted that people disagree with me

    sorry

    THe RDF IS a waste of money. It does NOT serve any purpose. Get rid of it and you could have your subsidised camp for your daughter and hell, send them on a STV when they're older if they show an interest.

    your missing my point the RDF is only a waste because the dept have no interest in

    actually using our reserve the proper way a reserve should be


    and when the heir to the Hog non fortune want anything then they go out and earn a few bob

    and then they can do it

    I am a miserable sod- I dont give them handouts

    anything they get they earn either through work, good exam results or just plain bribery
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  24. #122
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    Hey, Why don't we go all the way and disband the RDF & The PDF. Turn the NS & AC into a Coast Guard. Makes the most sense financially.

    Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.
    I said this in retaliation to Hedgehog. The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted.

    However, my true opinion is different.
    The RDF had a way of making itself relevant. It was handed a golden opportunity to make it indispensable. This was Integration. Integration could have provided the PDF Battalions with a manoeuvre element which would have made them far more effective. It would have provided the RDF with enhanced training & skills, purpose & equipment.
    It is ironic that by attempting to ensure their personal powerbases and killing Integration, most of the anti-Integration mafia and senior officers have probably doomed the RDF and wiped out those power bases that they cherished so much. The RDF is only guaranteed survival until Dec 2009 - the end of the current white paper. The 2010 white paper may just finish it off.

    The PDF is relevant and has an important purpose, something desperately needed by the RDF.

  25. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    I said this in retaliation to Hedgehog. The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted.

    However, my true opinion is different.
    The RDF had a way of making itself relevant. It was handed a golden opportunity to make it indispensable. This was Integration. Integration could have provided the PDF Battalions with a manoeuvre element which would have made them far more effective. It would have provided the RDF with enhanced training & skills, purpose & equipment.
    It is ironic that by attempting to ensure their personal powerbases and killing Integration, most of the anti-Integration mafia and senior officers have probably doomed the RDF and wiped out those power bases that they cherished so much. The RDF is only guaranteed survival until Dec 2009 - the end of the current white paper. The 2010 white paper may just finish it off.

    The PDF is relevant and has an important purpose, something desperately needed by the RDF.

    Which is why, I would argue, integration should have applied across the board, to the entire RDF- would have killed off any anti-integration "mafia" in one fell swoop.
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  26. #124
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted
    NO NO and NO

    why why and why

    would I do it

    I started the lazy Nuns thread for fun

    this I posted on because I believe

    that we are at impasse in regards everything in thei COuntry

    so in effect we can have our year zero with out the skulls


    why would you be so paranoid as to my motives
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  27. #125
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Docman made a very interesting point re: the White Paper to 2009. I haven't read it but would be interested in finding out more.

    I have posted here before that IMHO the DOD/Top Brass/Finance would be more than happy if the AR was brought to an end.

    I feel that when the DOD get down to the nitty gritty of making savings over the next few years the mandays, etc are going to be reduced significantly. I would go so far as to say that we could end up with 7 days full time max with the exception for a few courses. I remember during the 80's a Pots course being run over three weekends (unpaid) and one week full time. Further uniforms, transport, rations, etc will form part of the mix = cutbacks.

    Per the two Brians the €2Bm savings this year is only the start with €4Bm each for 2010 & 2011 and more cuts up to 2013.

    Here's a plan. In each Bde area, the Bns become Coys to form one Bn, the CS and CSS Coys become Plns in the new Bn, ie one reserve BN for ecah PDF Bde. Do away with a lot of cadre, locations, etc, etc. Then just become more selective with recruitment, formal contracts, fitness tests, bonus points for entry to PDF, etc. If we are lucky.

    Now how do you get rid of the numbers. Simple, service no longer required, fitness tests, attendence, etc. Inability to pay. Now where did I hear that expression before.

    With the rate of job losses over the last few months and with Brian Cowan openly saying that unemployment will reach 400k this year any political pressure coming from AR sources will be little or none. Quite simply the country will be in such a state that you will get a very short answer from your local TD. Indeed some ecomonists and commentators say the figue will be significantly higher over the next few years. They only have to be right once.

    So leaving aside the financial cost of supporting people and familes who are out of work, the whole area of the social cost is incalculable in terms of education, homes being repossed, peoples' self esteem, the health service, etc.

    I feel we are in for a big change.

    Rant over.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

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