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  1. #26
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    You might be spot on
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  2. #27
    2/Lt
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    If I am, then the whole reason the 5 year contract thing was brought in goes Balls up. The average Age of Pte's will rise rise to fairly high levels.
    I probably am wrong, sorry about that!!!

    Please PM me to correct me.

    But, not if I state an opinion, only if I state something as truth!!!

    I have bad opinions but I stick by them!!!

  3. #28
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    if any group of civil/public servants are to be exempted from the cutbacks, experience tells me it will be pdf officers;
    in the very unlikely event they are affected, it will be to a minimal extent;

  4. #29
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    You have placed a lot of importance on the organisation of the defence forces. Consider instead the output it provides compared to the civil service you despise so much. We have managers too. When they retire, they also need to be replaced.
    Jesus aren't we a bit defensive. I don't "despise" the civil service. I know they have managers etc. but by definition, I dont think there is an organisation that relies as much as the army on rank, promotion, career courses etc. for it to function properly. Maybe the Guards as well but they dont have as many ranks. With my comment I am particularly thinking of overseas appointments, many which can only be filled by people acting up to a rank above them - not a fair proposition if they are getting paid properly for their work.

    when vacancies arise Departments/agencies etc must reallocate or reorganise work or
    staff accordingly.
    Difficult to make that work in the DF.

  5. #30
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    if any group of civil/public servants are to be exempted from the cutbacks, experience tells me it will be pdf officers;
    in the very unlikely event they are affected, it will be to a minimal extent;
    Tell that to all the Lt's who wont be getting promoted in July.

    What experience is telling you PDF officers will be exempt? Were they exempt when this was done before in the 80's?

  6. #31
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    I bet only 2 token Officers wont get promoted this July

    and one will be a really good looking blondie bird
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  7. #32
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I won't get promoted in July. Unless there's a serious batch of retirements.


    Me =


    On reading of the circular it would appear to apply to the PDF and RDF. Personally I pity those poor people on Standard and Potential NCO courses also.
    Last edited by trellheim; 31st March 2009 at 15:30.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  8. #33
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    how do you make out the until retirement bit


    My reading of it - is that there is NO promotion

    do you really think any special exemptions will be given to mere Soldiers

    either RDF or PDF
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  9. #34
    ltsmarty
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    RDF affected ?

    Correct me for being confused ?
    If according to the Minister, the RDF are classed as Volunteers, not as Part-time workers, servants,etc, how does the aforementioned Civil/Public Service letter regarding promotions,etc apply to the Reserve ?

  10. #35
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The letter applies to the "Public Service" ... that IMHO is everyone who takes the shilling from the state or its agencies.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  11. #36
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The letter applies to the "Public Service" ... that IMHO is everyone who takes the shilling from the state or its agencies.
    Hopefully not.... the Q&A bit from the Department of Finance (http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5723) says "Permanent Defence Force".

  12. #37
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    I don't think this will affect the DF in terms of promotions and so forth because the structure of the DF is different to the rest of the country.
    And likewise in how its employment practices go about.


    I think people who need their contract renewed will get it renewed. Otherwise there will be no soldiers and we will be invaded

    Sarcasm aside, I think that the army is probably going to be exempt from this on account of promotions being detrimental to the efficiency of the organisation as a whole (Be that PDF and RDF) and I don't think that this wil affect anybody in uniform.
    And as anyone will tell you, the pay in the army is at the lower scale to the rest of the government employees too.

  13. #38
    the gunney greyfox's Avatar
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    a recruitment embargo on the reserves would kill the organization in two or three years , perhaps this has been taken into account, but if you look at the finances needed to train a PDF recruit to 3* would freezing RDF recruitment ,pay for even one plt of PDF ?
    being involved with our recruits this year and seeing the time effort put in by them and by others i would frankly be disgusted if they were told sorry we leading ye on since January ,
    "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

  14. #39
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The Story So Far :

    Recruitment PDF
    1: Enlisted - On Hold. No sign or hint of opening up any time soon.
    2: Cadets - On Hold. No sign or hint of opening up any time soon.

    Promotions PDF:
    The Embargo applies on reading the circular.

    Recruitment RDF
    Only to a set number which most units are already at.

    Promotions RDF :
    Unknown.

    The last Dail question 10th March.

    58. Deputy Bernard Allen Information Zoom asked the Minister for Defence Information Zoom when he expects a decision to be made on whether there will be a cadet intake in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9857/09]

    64. Deputy Ciarán Lynch Information Zoom asked the Minister for Defence Information Zoom if a decision has been made regarding recruitment to the permanent Defence Forces in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9769/09]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): Information Zoom I propose to take Questions Nos. 58 and 64 together.

    In common with other areas of the public service a reduction of 3% in payroll costs has been applied to the Defence Forces. Recruitment was suspended in late 2008 pending consideration of the best means by which to achieve this reduction. My officials and the military authorities are keeping the situation under close review on an ongoing basis. The review and any subsequent recruitment in 2009 will prioritise the operational requirements of the Defence Forces. A decision on a Cadet intake for 2009 will be made shortly.
    Last edited by trellheim; 31st March 2009 at 17:56.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  15. #40
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayday View Post
    I don't think this will affect the DF in terms of promotions and so forth because the structure of the DF is different to the rest of the country.
    And likewise in how its employment practices go about.

    I think people who need their contract renewed will get it renewed.
    Will you think (hope!) that there are no tax changes for those earning under €30k as well!

    Quote Originally Posted by greyfox View Post
    a recruitment embargo on the reserves would kill the organization in two or three years , perhaps this has been taken into account
    Maybe thats the plan? Stranger thinks have happened!

    being involved with our recruits this year and seeing the time effort put in by them and by others i would frankly be disgusted if they were told sorry we leading ye on since January ,
    Tell me about it!! Str

    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post

    Recruitment RDF
    Only to a set number which most units are already at.
    I still haven't seen this document. Cadre contacted the puzzle place and pointed out a few things and they have no idea how its working. We are cracking on.

  16. #41
    D.C.B. dahamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    how do you make out the until retirement bit


    My reading of it - is that there is NO promotion

    do you really think any special exemptions will be given to mere Soldiers

    either RDF or PDF
    Back to the 80's again hedge, embargo on recruitment and promotions.

    There are going to be alot of dissapointed bods over the next few years.

  17. #42
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Stickied The Thread As It's going to be asked a lot
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamster View Post
    Back to the 80's again hedge, embargo on recruitment and promotions.

    There are going to be alot of dissapointed bods over the next few years.
    You said it, it's deja vu all over again, at least for the more mature members... As Karl used to say “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce", so hopefully we'll get a laugh out of this time around....

  19. #44
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyfox View Post
    a recruitment embargo on the reserves would kill the organization in two or three years , perhaps this has been taken into account, but if you look at the finances needed to train a PDF recruit to 3* would freezing RDF recruitment ,pay for even one plt of PDF ?
    being involved with our recruits this year and seeing the time effort put in by them and by others i would frankly be disgusted if they were told sorry we leading ye on since January ,
    Didn't this come round as a rumour some months ago? The RDF needs regular intakes of fresh blood to keep it alive.

  20. #45
    the gunney greyfox's Avatar
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    was in barracks tonight and there is still much uncertainty as to recruit ment / camp the unusual step of issuing a application for camp a good 6 weeks before it was done in past ,
    what i do know is our maydays have been cut by half, if we send all our recruits on a recruit camp 21 days by current syllabus( run by ourselves ) , we will not have enough to send all the trained bods on a weeks camp , add the x amount of people on career courses 21 man days and specialist courses 14 -21 maydays there is a situation where we will be forced to choose between recruiting / continuation / advancement .
    that being said i was told it could all change next week
    "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

  21. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyfox View Post
    was in barracks tonight and there is still much uncertainty as to recruit ment / camp the unusual step of issuing a application for camp a good 6 weeks before it was done in past ,
    Appartantly a directive went out, applications have to be in x weeks in advance.

  22. #47
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Does anyone have or can email me the D Res directive re recruitment to strength etc ? PM for email address if you don't have.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUN View Post
    Tell that to all the Lt's who wont be getting promoted in July.

    What experience is telling you PDF officers will be exempt? Were they exempt when this was done before in the 80's?
    Regarding PDF Lt's forthcoming promotions in July, lets wait and see.

    Regarding experience, i've none in the PDF but have thirty two and a half years experience in the FCA/RDF, twenty six years of which have been as an officer.
    What i've observed and experienced during that time leads me to form the opinion that PDF Officers are treated differently to mere mortals such as I and my socio-economic class.

    I may be incorrect but PDF Officers didn't suffer from cutbacks in the 1980's, at least as far as I can recollect.

    I don't have empirical evidence to support my views so you're justified in being sceptical of my statements.

    As PDF Officers are paid while attending College (and provided with free/subsidised accommodation and also given funds towards the cost of their books), I believe they should pay for their own Courses Fees.

  24. #49
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    I may be incorrect but PDF Officers didn't suffer from cutbacks in the 1980's, at least as far as I can recollect.
    Yes they were. There was a 4 year promotion freeze.

    I don't have empirical evidence to support my views so you're justified in being sceptical of my statements.
    So its just a personal prejudice then. There is a view that officers are some form of priveleged crowd of middle class people who got where they were because of "pull" or influence whereas the reality couldn't be further from the truth.

    As PDF Officers are paid while attending College (and provided with free/subsidised accommodation and also given funds towards the cost of their books), I believe they should pay for their own Courses Fees.
    Not all PDF officers attend college. 1 third of the last 3 cadet classes were graduates. There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
    Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.

  25. #50
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    Well said ICUN.

    (Lobotomy references aside)

    I would highly expect an officer to be highly educated and I wholly agree with you there. The people at the top need to be the clever people.

    I agree with everything you just said there. Absolutely on the money.

    I don't beleive that the RDF will be affected by the cutbacks too much. As there is precious little investment put in (whne compared to the PDF overall) and I would imagine that will remain the same.
    I thinkt he only real cutback for RDF personnel that we are seeing, and will see, is the paid mandays being cut from 42 to 21 days.

    Maybe one or two things from a logistical perspective, ie annual training inside your own brigade only, but overall I thinkt he RDF will not be affected too much from this.

    I doubt a recruitment embargo will happen for the RDF, because unlike the 80s, the reserve fulfills a greater deal of functions and works with the PDF. Whereas 20/30 years ago it was its own little thing and a wholly seperate entity.

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