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  • #61
    News from the locality in question....

    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    • #62
      Most books are in the 60 to 150 class/category

      a couple of books every semester

      equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.

      and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles

      what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people


      If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce

      a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
      will not make them a better military leader
      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
        Most books are in the 60 to 150 class/category

        a couple of books every semester

        equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.

        and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles

        what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people


        If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce

        a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
        will not make them a better military leader
        Hedgehog - its way more than a few per semester. If its law or commerce then these are in the sixty odd quid or so league and above. Other subjects may come in lower and you might get away with second hand. If your lucky your lecturer will make photocopies available for you but expect to pay a small fortune in printing. Assuming you have six modules per semester, there will probably be 2 core texts for each -say something between €40-60 per module on books, another thirty for printing or so.

        Looking from the outside I would think what the goal is with the degree is to have the leadership level of the organisation equipped with the learning skills needed to get through said course. Regarding arts - I would have thought that history and politics are very useful to any officer that may be taking part in peace support operations around the globe.

        UCD now has a war studies department http://www.ucd.ie/warstudies/index.html but its MA only.
        Last edited by northie; 3 April 2009, 11:34.

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        • #64
          If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.

          What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by northie View Post
            Hedgehog - its way more than a few per semester. If its law or commerce then these are in the sixty odd quid or so league and above. Other subjects may come in lower and you might get away with second hand. If your lucky your lecturer will make photocopies available for you but expect to pay a small fortune in printing. Assuming you have six modules per semester, there will probably be 2 core texts for each -say something between €40-60 per module on books, another thirty for printing or so.



            And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years


            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
            Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
            Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
            Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by johnny no stars View Post



              And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years


              well done!

              and i bet it was written by the lecturer you have and you were made buy it. i hate when they do that!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by johnny no stars View Post



                And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years


                Thats if you were to buy each and every book in the up to date version from the campus bookshop in UCD then thats what it would cost. If you were to photocopy the addittional reading then you'd be well be into the kind of money. Of course most non live at home's don't have this kind of cash so they share books between friends, try and scan them to PDF files etc. But in theory - if you were to follow the recommended reading lists i'd suggest you'd pay €60-80 per module on books.

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                • #68
                  I did 5 years in college and covered around 20+ subjects and had to buy around 3-5 books (got some for cheap from the net & had to buy 2/3 new € 75-100 each).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Please provide empirical evidence.
                    I dont have emperical evidence but 4 commandants talking about when it happened to them is enough for me.
                    Upon what do you base your claim that "the reality couldn't be further from the truth"?
                    Because I know about 60 of them.

                    Unlike "any soldier in the country" Officers attending College are not "living in" as they are not engaged in activities of a military fashion and are very, vary rarely called upon to perform military roles during the College Term.
                    Yes they are "single living in". USAC is a military establishment, complete with a CO and duty panel.
                    T.......the subsidised meals in USAC. More privileges perhaps?
                    There are no dining facilities in USAC.

                    Contrary to what you believe, they are given a substantial allowance towards the cost of textbooks.Don't take my word for it. Ask a few of them.
                    I don't need to ask any of them. I know tha they can claim the money spent on any books as an expens. They dont get a "substantial allowance".

                    Our taxes pay for the expenditure on Defence.
                    [quote]
                    And your point? People in the DF pay tax too.
                    I believe that paying for a College Education for Officers is something we can no longer afford.
                    They arent attending some private fee paying institution, They are getting paid their salary and returning to work during college breaks.
                    I believe Officers are earning enough to pay for their own College Fees.
                    Nobody pays fees in Ireland bar registration fees which are a couple of grand at a maximum.
                    Perhaps recruiting Graduates only to the Officer Corps will save us a fortune and also free up Officers to perform military duties, as opposed to spending a minimum of three years in College Heaven?
                    It would probably save a bit of money alright but it isn't really fair to a young 18 year old who wants to pursue a career as an Army Officer to make him wait 3 or 4 years to go to college before he can join. Also, I'm sure it would contravene some kind of discrimination legislation.

                    As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
                    We cannot afford such largesse whilst badly needed Special Needs Teachers are being laid off?
                    No they aren't. As has been stated, they can reclaim what they spend on books. An allowance that might actually make a difference if it was axed would be TD's "walking about money" or any of the many other allowances they get.


                    ICUN you werent around during the last promotion embargo......
                    Officers DID NOT suffer and I doubt they will suffer this one either
                    No I wasnt but I have heard 1st hand from plenty who were effected by it. Tell that to the lad I know who is getting 600-800 less a month because of this and will still have to do the same job.

                    Point 2- Officers are a differnt class- and thats the nature of the beast-
                    Well, it depends how you define class. If you define it as the socio-economic group someone comes from then there is no such thing as a "class" of officer. I know officers from single parent families, who have parents on the dole, who have parents who are loaded. Same applies for enlisted personnel I know.

                    Point 3- USAC is not like any barracks I have ever been in- and your tellin
                    What I meant was, officers attending USAC are afforded the opportunity of staying in military accomodation, the same way anyone else in the army can live in army accomodation. Army accomodation varies widely regardless of rank. Shite damp 200 year old buildings dont discriminate between who is within their walls.

                    ICUN- where have you been - havent seen you on here in a while
                    I'm away with work, not too easy to get online in my current location.

                    If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.
                    They have that already - Pot Officers Course, one was run a year ago.

                    Nobody is denying that getting paid your salary while going to college is a good deal......but if the army want their officers to have a third level education thats the way its going to be. The reason behind, apart from the general benefits of a 3rd level qualification in the non-subject specific skills that are acquired, it is mainly to do with later career stuff. For example, many senior command courses are accredited as a Masters qualification and you would need a degree in something beforehand.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ICUN View Post
                      It would probably save a bit of money alright but it isn't really fair to a young 18 year old who wants to pursue a career as an Army Officer to make him wait 3 or 4 years to go to college before he can join. Also, I'm sure it would contravene some kind of discrimination legislation.
                      If you want it bad enough then you'll get a degree. If getting a degree (which is useful in life in general, outside of the DF) is too much for you then you probably aren't cut out to be an officer in the first place......

                      As far as discrimination legistation goes - change educational requirements to "level 8 degree or equivalent". Sorted.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Lads dont take it out on ICUN

                        He is a good guy
                        Last edited by hedgehog; 3 April 2009, 19:35.
                        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                        Are full of passionate intensity.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kermit
                          I never bought a book in all the time I was in third level education. Lecturers provided their own notes. "Core texts" as you put it were in the Library.
                          Lucky you.

                          I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.

                          One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
                          B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
                          go into it in a lot more detail than I did

                          The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
                          reading for Eng students where I was

                          Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR

                          Getting back to the immediate subject at hand, I would be leaning towards graduates being
                          recruited fot the Cadets, or at least new 2/Lts having to "serve their time" before going to
                          3rd Level - someone mentioned the maturity aspect of it - I woud be in full agreement,
                          especially when I think of some of the childish stuff that went on when I was
                          a poor student

                          It is the taxpayer's hard earned cash that is paying for it, after all
                          Last edited by Truck Driver; 3 April 2009, 19:39.
                          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                            Lucky you.

                            I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.

                            One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
                            B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
                            go into it in a lot more detail than I did

                            The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
                            reading for Eng students where I was

                            Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR
                            lol, that's pretty much what I had to buy - 2 stroud books and a mechanics of materials book, except I didn't buy the maths books as I just take decent notes in maths. Besides, they hand out notes in DIT now

                            It's perfectly reasonable to expect that the officers do NOT need to buy every recommended text. If they're doing law or something like that fair enough, but what happened to using the library or taking notes? There's a saving I can think of. No more refund of monies spent on text books. They earn enough anyway to be able to pay for it.
                            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                            Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                            Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                            Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by easyrider View Post
                              If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.

                              What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.
                              Definitely. I believe this harks back to the days when only the "upper classes" went to university, and it was percieved that to maintain the "officer class" then each officer needed to be a graduate.
                              Those days are gone.
                              Time for the DF to move on.
                              If you want to go to university, then do so at your own expense.
                              If you want to be an officer with a degree, Join then.

                              Some of the courses these people do, are pointless in the Job of Manager in military(which is after all what an officer is). This is borne out by the fact that graduates from many other areas, be it technical or non technical in nature, can do a cadetship and become an "ordinary" officer.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #75
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                                note the thing at the end regards recruiting
                                "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

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