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Recruitment/Promotion Embargo (untill end of 2010!)
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This is a sticky topic.
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Most books are in the 60 to 150 class/category
a couple of books every semester
equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.
and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles
what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people
If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce
a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
will not make them a better military leaderThings fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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Originally posted by hedgehog View PostMost books are in the 60 to 150 class/category
a couple of books every semester
equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.
and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles
what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people
If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce
a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
will not make them a better military leader
Looking from the outside I would think what the goal is with the degree is to have the leadership level of the organisation equipped with the learning skills needed to get through said course. Regarding arts - I would have thought that history and politics are very useful to any officer that may be taking part in peace support operations around the globe.
UCD now has a war studies department http://www.ucd.ie/warstudies/index.html but its MA only.Last edited by northie; 3 April 2009, 10:34.
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If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.
What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.
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Originally posted by northie View PostHedgehog - its way more than a few per semester. If its law or commerce then these are in the sixty odd quid or so league and above. Other subjects may come in lower and you might get away with second hand. If your lucky your lecturer will make photocopies available for you but expect to pay a small fortune in printing. Assuming you have six modules per semester, there will probably be 2 core texts for each -say something between €40-60 per module on books, another thirty for printing or so.
And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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Originally posted by johnny no stars View Post
And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years
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Please provide empirical evidence.
Upon what do you base your claim that "the reality couldn't be further from the truth"?
Unlike "any soldier in the country" Officers attending College are not "living in" as they are not engaged in activities of a military fashion and are very, vary rarely called upon to perform military roles during the College Term.
T.......the subsidised meals in USAC. More privileges perhaps?
Contrary to what you believe, they are given a substantial allowance towards the cost of textbooks.Don't take my word for it. Ask a few of them.
Our taxes pay for the expenditure on Defence.
[quote]
And your point? People in the DF pay tax too.
I believe that paying for a College Education for Officers is something we can no longer afford.
I believe Officers are earning enough to pay for their own College Fees.
Perhaps recruiting Graduates only to the Officer Corps will save us a fortune and also free up Officers to perform military duties, as opposed to spending a minimum of three years in College Heaven?
As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
We cannot afford such largesse whilst badly needed Special Needs Teachers are being laid off?
ICUN you werent around during the last promotion embargo......
Officers DID NOT suffer and I doubt they will suffer this one either
Point 2- Officers are a differnt class- and thats the nature of the beast-
Point 3- USAC is not like any barracks I have ever been in- and your tellin
ICUN- where have you been - havent seen you on here in a while
If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.
Nobody is denying that getting paid your salary while going to college is a good deal......but if the army want their officers to have a third level education thats the way its going to be. The reason behind, apart from the general benefits of a 3rd level qualification in the non-subject specific skills that are acquired, it is mainly to do with later career stuff. For example, many senior command courses are accredited as a Masters qualification and you would need a degree in something beforehand.
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Originally posted by ICUN View PostIt would probably save a bit of money alright but it isn't really fair to a young 18 year old who wants to pursue a career as an Army Officer to make him wait 3 or 4 years to go to college before he can join. Also, I'm sure it would contravene some kind of discrimination legislation.
As far as discrimination legistation goes - change educational requirements to "level 8 degree or equivalent". Sorted.
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Lads dont take it out on ICUN
He is a good guyLast edited by hedgehog; 3 April 2009, 18:35.Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Comment
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Originally posted by kermitI never bought a book in all the time I was in third level education. Lecturers provided their own notes. "Core texts" as you put it were in the Library.
I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.
One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
go into it in a lot more detail than I did
The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
reading for Eng students where I was
Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR
Getting back to the immediate subject at hand, I would be leaning towards graduates being
recruited fot the Cadets, or at least new 2/Lts having to "serve their time" before going to
3rd Level - someone mentioned the maturity aspect of it - I woud be in full agreement,
especially when I think of some of the childish stuff that went on when I was
a poor student
It is the taxpayer's hard earned cash that is paying for it, after allLast edited by Truck Driver; 3 April 2009, 18:39."Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
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Originally posted by Truck Driver View PostLucky you.
I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.
One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
go into it in a lot more detail than I did
The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
reading for Eng students where I was
Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR
It's perfectly reasonable to expect that the officers do NOT need to buy every recommended text. If they're doing law or something like that fair enough, but what happened to using the library or taking notes? There's a saving I can think of. No more refund of monies spent on text books. They earn enough anyway to be able to pay for it.Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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Originally posted by easyrider View PostIf the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.
What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.
Those days are gone.
Time for the DF to move on.
If you want to go to university, then do so at your own expense.
If you want to be an officer with a degree, Join then.
Some of the courses these people do, are pointless in the Job of Manager in military(which is after all what an officer is). This is borne out by the fact that graduates from many other areas, be it technical or non technical in nature, can do a cadetship and become an "ordinary" officer.
Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.
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"take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"
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