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  • #46
    The Whole thing, from the DF P.O.V

    Detailed Paper No.5 – Defence
    Table 5.1 Defence expenditure allocations
    2008
    provisional
    outturn
    2009 Revised
    Estimates
    year-onyear
    %
    change
    proposed full
    year savings
    %
    savings
    Defence
    Gross Current €849.9m €804.2m -5.4% €53.4m -6.7%
    Gross Capital €27.0m €18.4m -31.9% -
    Gross Total €876.9m €822.6m -6.2% €53.4m -6.5%
    Staff numbers 11,652 11,482 -1.5% 520 -4.5%
    Army Pensions
    Gross Current €203.7m €209.0m 2.6% - -
    Gross Capital - - - - -
    Gross Total €203.7m €209.0m 2.6% - -
    Pension numbers a 11,671 11,640 - - -
    a Includes 2 civil servants who work on Vote 37.
    Introduction
    The Defence Group of Votes consists of the Votes for the Department of Defence (D/Defence) and
    for Army Pensions.
    The primary role of the D/Defence is to support the Minister and to provide policy advice and
    support on Defence matters, including assistance with policy formulation and the implementation of
    policy as directed by the Minister. The roles of the Defence Forces are to defend the State against
    armed aggression, to aid the civil power, to participate in multinational peace support, crisis
    management and humanitarian relief operations in support of the United Nations, to provide a
    fisheries protection service in accordance with the State’s obligations as a member of the EU and to
    carry out other duties that may be assigned to them from time to time, e.g. search and rescue, air
    ambulance service, Ministerial air transport service, assistance on the occasion of natural or other
    disasters, assistance in connection with the maintenance of essential services, and assistance in
    combating oil pollution at sea.
    - 46 -
    Table 5.2 Defence resource allocation by Programme
    2009 Capital
    a
    2009
    Current
    of which -
    pay
    staff
    numbers
    b
    A. Contingent capabilities €19.4m €465.4m €362.2m 7,420
    B. On-Island security and support to other
    agencies
    €0.3m €138.6m €78.1m 1,600
    C. International peace and security €0.5m €161.1m €92.2m 1,888
    D. Defence policy, military advice and
    corporate services
    €1.2m €39.1m €28.0m 574
    E. Military pensions and gratuities - €209.0m €0.1m 2
    TOTAL €21.4m €1,013.2m €560.6m 11,484
    a It should be noted that Programme allocation include €3m capital carryover in addition to the 2009 Revised Estimates
    Volume capital allocation of €18.4m.
    b Includes Departmental and Office Civil Servants, Agency Public Servants and members of the Permanent Defence
    Forces – Estimate 2009 as provided by D/Defence
    At present there is one body in receipt of Exchequer funding operating under the aegis of the
    D/Defence, Coiste an Asgard. Exchequer funding available to this body in 2009 is €0.8m, and it
    employs 2 staff seconded from the D/Defence, the details of which are set out in the Appendix to
    this Paper.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

    Comment


    • #47
      DOD/DF charge the full cost of MATS missions to other Departments (with a view to potential outsourcing)
      Like thats going to happen..one department charging the other for services..bye bye MATs..up side..Army gets more time with HELOs....unless there is a restriction on ministerial heli travel
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
        Yes.
        Not too keen on the wording. It infers that the need for new ships is not a real one, which is typical coming from a bunch of number crunchers.
        Dissappointing, any holding back on this will have ramifications long into the future, in areas like drug enforcement and natural resources.

        Comment


        • #49
          Outcome of the Group’s deliberations
          In deciding the recommendations for the Defence Group of Votes, the Special Group has taken into
          consideration the detailed evaluation papers prepared by the D/Defence and by the Defence Vote
          Section in the Department of Finance. It has also taken into account that gross current Exchequer
          expenditure for this Vote has increased by about 26% since 2001 compared to an increase of over
          115% in total gross current Exchequer expenditure over the same period. This is primarily due to
          ongoing reforms in the Defence Forces over this period, including a reduction of over 900
          personnel.
          On the basis of the information and analyses made available to it and following its interaction with
          the D/Defence, the Group has identified proposals to save €53.4m. The Group has identified scope
          for a structural reduction of at least 20 staff across the Department.
          The Group is cognisant of the interdependency between all elements of Defence expenditure, which
          militates against determining savings in the Defence area on a programme-by-programme basis.
          Accordingly, the Programme allocation of savings given in Table 5.3 below is broadly indicative in
          nature. More generally, on the basis of the information and analyses made available to it and
          following its interaction with the D/Defence, the Group recommends gross reductions across the
          board of around €25m in pay and €20m in non-pay in a full year on the basis of a number of
          specific measures detailed below, as well as savings of about €8.5m elsewhere on the Vote.
          Personnel Reductions
          It should be possible to reorganise the Defence sector over a period of time so as to achieve a
          reduction of 500 personnel. The Group is conscious that delivering such a reduction in numbers
          while preserving operational capability will require considerable planning and redesign of the
          - 47 -
          organisation including consolidation of the command structure. Notwithstanding the reduction in
          numbers, the increased efficiency of the organisation should allow for the preservation of the
          existing 3 brigade structure. The Group recommends, accordingly, that the D/Defence should bring
          forward proposals for approval by the Government by the end of 2009 to allow a reduction of 500.
          This reduction could be achieved, within a 2 to 3 year period as operational requirements allow.
          Based on a proportionate reduction in the 2009 net pay provision in the Defence vote, the resultant
          saving in the pay provision should, over the 3 year period, rise to approximately €25m per annum in
          2009 prices.
          The Group has also identified scope for a structural change in the Reserve Defence Force involving
          a reduction of at least 4,900 members
          conts..


          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

          Comment


          • #50
            The proposed indicative savings by Programme area are set out in the table below.
            Table 5.3 Defence - Total measures identified by Programme
            Annualised
            savings
            identified
            Recommended
            staffing
            reductions
            A. Contingent capabilities €36.5m 325
            B. On-Island security and support to other agencies €6.3m 70
            C. International peace and security €7.5m 90
            D. Defence policy, military advice and corporate services €3.1m 35
            Total Current Savings €53.4m 520
            Programme A – Contingent capabilities
            The purpose of this Programme is to provide for the defence of the State against armed aggression
            by maintaining and developing military capabilities. This Programme accounts for total gross
            expenditure of €484.8m in 2009 and 6,638 members of the Permanent Defence Forces, 76 civil
            servants and 706 civilian employees.
            In addition to the Group’ recommendations for reductions in current expenditure under this
            Programme, set out in table 5.4, it has also identified a number of proposals that will yield once-off
            receipts as well as deliver the potential for further operational savings in the future.
            Rationalise the army barracks
            While 10 barracks have closed over the past decade, 24 permanently occupied barracks remain.
            The dispersal of personnel over a large number of locations is a major impediment to essential
            collective training as well as imposing increased and unnecessary overheads on the Permanent
            Defence Forces in terms of barrack management, administration, maintenance and security.
            There are further opportunities to consolidate Defence Forces units into a smaller number of
            locations and to dispose of the surplus properties. While some up-front expenditure on
            infrastructural works will be needed in advance of any further consolidation into these barracks,
            there may be immediate opportunities in some locations to close and dispose of properties. The
            Special Group recommends that the D/Defence bring forward detailed proposals for closure of such
            - 48 -
            additional barracks in the shortest possible timeframe and for the disposal of surplus properties so
            as to maximise the return having regard to market conditions.
            contd.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #51
              Cathal Brugha Barracks
              In particular, the Special Group considers that there is no need for two large Army barracks in
              Dublin and the future of Cathal Brugha Barracks should be reviewed with a view to possible sale.
              Given the scale of any relocation, the provision of alternative accommodation would entail a
              significant up-front cost and a lead-time of some years. It is recommended that, as part of an
              overall consolidation programme, the D/Defence should bring forward a detailed feasibility study
              for the disposal of Cathal Brugha Barracks and the relocation of the personnel stationed there to
              other sites within the Defence Forces portfolio. This rationalisation of premises will contribute to
              the reduction in numbers in the Permanent Defence Forces.
              Rationalise property portfolio
              As well as barracks, the Defence property portfolio consists of a diverse range of facilities including
              8 training facilities (accounting for 16,800 acres), 7 firing ranges (1,091 acres) and 26 Reserve
              Defence Force premises (22 acres) as well as renting 51 properties for the Reserve Defence Forces.
              The D/Defence has identified 33 properties for disposal at an aggregated estimated value of €51.2m.
              Although these valuations were prior to the recent correction in the property market it is reasonable
              to assume that rationalising the property portfolio should lead to a substantial once off benefit to the
              Exchequer. The Group recommends that the rationalisation of the Defence property portfolio be
              commenced by preparing for sale property that is not fully and economically utilised by the
              Defence Sector.
              Table 5.4 Defence - Measures identified for Programme A
              Annual savings
              Indicative Share of Pay Savings €16.5m
              Indicative Share of Non-Pay Savings €13.3m
              A.1 Charge full value of rent to ‘overholders’ of married quarters €0.1m
              A.2 Discontinue the Army Equestrian Team €1.0m
              A.3 Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by two-thirds €5.6m
              Total Current Savings €36.6m
              Associated Defence personnel reductions 325
              A.1 Charge full value of rent to ‘overholders’ of married quarters
              Nearly a third of the 150 married quarters are occupied by ‘overholders’ (army personnel who do
              not vacate their quarters following their discharge) and these are charged the standard rent plus
              10%. While the D/Defence policy is to discontinue the provision of married quarters in a managed
              and orderly way, the Special Group recommends that the full market value of rent should be paid by
              ‘overholders’. This will yield savings of approximately €0.1m a year.
              Theres more..


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • #52
                A.2 Discontinue the Army Equestrian Team
                The Group sees no justification for the Army Equitation School as part of a modern professional
                defence force or for its funding through the Defence Vote, or public funds, and recommends that the
                State funding be discontinued and doing so should yield savings of €1m a year.
                A.3 Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by two-thirds
                There is scope to find additional savings from the Reserve Defence Force (RDF) and there is
                emerging evidence that the direction set for the RDF in the Defence White Paper (which was
                published in 2000) is not providing the desired result. It may be that a smaller more focused
                Reserve could deliver more usable capability to the Defence Forces for less expenditure. The
                D/Defence is seeking to prioritise a Value for Money and Policy Review of the Reserve Defence
                Force in order to critically examine the Reserve and make recommendations for its future
                development. A review of the contribution of the Reserve and a reduction in strength could result
                in additional savings on expenditure. It is recommended that the allocation for the Reserve Defence
                Force be reduced by two-thirds which will yield savings of €5.6m and a reduction in the overall
                numbers associated with the RDF of 4,900.
                Programme B – On-Island security and support to other agencies
                The purpose of this Programme is to contribute to on-island security and stability by providing, on
                request, aid to the civil power (ATCP), aid to the civil authority (ACA) and other emergency and
                non-emergency services. The extent of output under this Programme is demand-driven from yearto-
                year. This Programme accounts for total gross expenditure of €138.9m in 2009 and 1,452
                members of the Permanent Defence Forces, 15 civil servants, 28 staff of the Civil Defence Board
                and 105 civilian employees .
                Table 5.5 Defence - Measures identified for Programme B
                Annual savings
                Indicative Share of Pay Savings €3.5m
                Indicative Share of Non-Pay Savings €2.8m
                Total Current Savings €6.3m
                Associated Defence personnel reductions 70
                Extend the time-frame of the vessel replacement programme
                The D/Defence notes that there is a ‘requirement’ to initiate a vessel replacement programme to
                sustain the Naval Service flotilla as certain ships reach the end of their operational lifespan. In the
                current budgetary crisis, the Group recommends that this replacement programme be extended over
                a longer timeframe than initially envisaged.
                - 50 -
                Charge the full economic cost of aid-to-civil power, aid-to-the-civil-authority and non-emergency
                services
                The bulk of outputs under this Programme are provided to and in support of other Departments and
                Agencies (e.g. Departments of Agriculture, Food & Fisheries and Justice, Equality & Law Reform
                as well as An Garda Síochána). The deployment of the Defence Forces in these activities
                minimises the requirement to duplicate State services and utilises defence resources to achieve
                maximum value for money. In order to enhance transparency in costs for the Defence Forces of
                these activities, it is recommended that the full-economic cost of these services be charged to the
                relevant agency.
                Charge full economic cost of Ministerial Air Transport Service to Departments
                The Air Corps also provides the Ministerial Air Transport Service (MATS). In 2007, these
                accounted for 15% of missions by the Air Corps but 24% of flight hours. It is recommended that
                Departments be charged the full economic cost of this service in the interests of transparency, and
                to provide opportunities for these services to be procured from private sector providers where this is
                more economical.
                And again...


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Programme C – International peace and security
                  The purpose of this Programme is to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and
                  security through participation in approved United Nations mandated peace support, crisis
                  management and humanitarian relief operations. It accounts for total gross expenditure of €161.6m
                  in 2009 and 1,865 members of the Permanent Defence Forces and 23 civil servants.
                  Table 5.6 Defence - Measures identified for Programme C
                  Annual savings
                  Indicative Share of Pay Savings €4.2m
                  Indicative Share of Non-Pay Savings €3.3m
                  Total Current Savings €7.5m
                  Associated Defence personnel reductions 90
                  Overseas peacekeeping expenditure to be counted as part of Ireland’s expenditure on foreign aid
                  Given the significant contribution that this Programme is making to overseas development by
                  guaranteeing the security of people and property, it is recommended that this expenditure count as
                  part of Ireland’s expenditure on foreign aid. While the Group is aware that such a recommendation
                  is inconsistent with the OECD’s Development Assistance Committee rules and that military
                  expenditure (even for humanitarian purposes) does not come within the standard international
                  accounting treatment of ODA, the Group considers that Irish commitments in this regard should be
                  reflected within Government accounts by reference to the totality of humanitarian related
                  expenditure, thereby fully recording Ireland’s distinctive tradition of whole hearted engagement in
                  peacekeeping operations.
                  - 51 -
                  Rationalise Ireland’s overseas commitments
                  While participation in overseas missions helps to maintain the readiness of the Defence Forces these
                  missions involve the commitment of significant resources, both in terms of supplying forces abroad
                  and the domestic costs associated with this. At the end of 2008, 31 members of the Permanent
                  Defence Forces were involved in 7 UN-led peacekeeping operations, 469 personnel were serving in
                  two EU-led crisis management operations (425 in Chad and 44 in Bosnia and Herzegovina), 247
                  personnel were deployed in two NATO/PfP-led peace support operations (240 in Kosovo and 7 in
                  Afghanistan) and 5 personnel were serving in four OSCE led missions.
                  Until March 2009, when Ireland’s mission to Chad became a UN-led mission rather than an
                  EUFOR mission, Ireland paid all its own costs. As a UN operation, the UN will take over the direct
                  supply of certain goods and services and will reimburse Ireland in respect of certain troop and
                  equipment costs. It is estimated that the UN reimbursement will be some €8.5m a year; the
                  corresponding cost of these goods and services to the D/Defence is some €16.2m a year (the total
                  mission cost is considerably higher). The Minister for Defence has indicated to the UN the
                  possibility that the state of the public finances may not permit the extension of Ireland’s
                  participation in the mission beyond March 2010.
                  The Group recommends that Ireland end its participation in Chad in March 2010 and rationalise its
                  overseas commitments to a smaller number of key missions.
                  Bah..


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Programme D – Defence Policy, military advice and corporate services
                    The purpose of this Programme is to provide the best possible defence policy advice and military
                    advice to the Minister in order to support management of all aspects of defence provision and
                    facilitate planning for future needs. This Programme accounts for total gross expenditure of €40.3m
                    in 2009 and 296 members of the Permanent Defence Forces, 266 civil servants and 12 civilian
                    employees.
                    As part of the Department’s ongoing management review process, an external evaluation is
                    underway of the staffing and operation of the Defence finance function (currently located in
                    Renmore, Co. Galway).
                    Table 5.7 Defence- Measures identified for Programme D
                    Annual savings
                    Indicative Share of Pay Savings €0.7m
                    Indicative Share of non-Pay Savings €0.6m
                    D.1 Reduce staff numbers in D/Defence in proportion to the reduction in the
                    Permanent Defence Forces
                    €1.0m
                    D.2 Close the sail training scheme (Asgard II) €0.8m
                    Total Current Savings €3.1m
                    Associated staff savings 20
                    Associated Defence personnel reductions 15
                    - 52 -
                    D.1 Reduce staff numbers in D/Defence in proportion to the reduction in the Permanent Defence
                    Forces
                    In line with the reduction in the numbers of Permanent Defence Force personnel, the Group
                    recommends that there be a proportionate reduction in the number of D/Defence staff. This
                    recommendation would reduce the number of staff by 20 and yield savings of €1m a year.
                    D.2 Close the sail training scheme (Asgard II)
                    In 2008, the sail training vessel, Asgard II, sank off the French coast. It is understood that the terms
                    of the insurance policy allow the proceeds to be credited to the Exchequer. The Group recommends
                    that any plans to build a replacement be deferred indefinitely. This will yield a once-off saving of
                    €3.8m as well as ongoing savings of €0.8m a year from the termination of the training scheme.
                    Programme E – Military Pensions and Gratuities
                    Various pensions, gratuities and other benefits are paid out of Vote 37 Army Pensions. This
                    Programme accounts for total gross expenditure of €209m in 2009 and 2 civil servants.
                    There are no proposals for savings in this Programme.
                    Appendix to Detailed Paper No. 5
                    Table 1 Non-commercial semi-State body
                    2009 (unless where otherwise specified) Capital Current of which –
                    Pay
                    Staff Nos.
                    1. Coiste an Asgard
                    Gross Expenditure - €0.8m €0.5m
                    of which: Exchequer - €0.8m €0.5m
                    2
                    Table 2 Civil service offices
                    2009 (unless where otherwise specified) Capital Current of which –
                    Pay
                    Staff Nos.
                    1. Office of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces
                    Gross Expenditure - €0.6m €0.3m
                    of which: Exchequer - €0.6m €0.3m
                    4
                    2. Civil Defence Board
                    Gross Expenditure - €6.2m €1.3m
                    of which: Exchequer
                    Tables dont paste here very well.

                    Thats the end anyway.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      any word on pensions df ones

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I go to all the trouble pasting that and you dont even bother reading it...

                        Programme E – Military Pensions and Gratuities
                        Various pensions, gratuities and other benefits are paid out of Vote 37 Army Pensions. This
                        Programme accounts for total gross expenditure of €209m in 2009 and 2 civil servants.
                        There are no proposals for savings in this Programme.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                          I go to all the trouble pasting that and you dont even bother reading it...
                          sorry gf i flicked straight to the quote button

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            There seems to be some confusion on the rdf proposal. They are not seeking to reduce the establishment by 66%. they are calling for 4,900 (about 45%??).

                            Its the money thats to fall by 66%. So an even more poorly funded reserve per capita. Unless there are big savings in closing the rural units like transport and rents.

                            4,900 would probably mean that the current effective strength becomes the establishment with too many chiefs, not enough indians and noone where their needed.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              This whole publication appears to be made up of suggestions that the various departments have given the Bord Snip as "worst case scenarios". The amount of measures that have already been leaked before the publication of the report was amazing.

                              I do agree with Docmans analysis though. It's integrated or bust. I've been saying this since 2006. Where's my redundancy?


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                while it is a worst case scenario publication we are very near to being in economic doomsday , there may be an element of a shopping list to it but every department is going to have to go shopping perhaps there is scope for a department to make savings elsewhere and not pick directly off the list but equivalent savings must be made ,
                                with the DOD willy will have to be seen to be active and say what you want about willy he is a loyal party man he would probably sell us all to the taliban if he was told to.
                                nobody within the DOD or the army is going to fight on the reserves behalf and given that equipping and manning the PDF must be the priority . the 5 million saved while small is the price the army must pay the piper , it wont be the most painful cut for the army therefore it will happen ,
                                Last edited by greyfox; 17 July 2009, 09:54.
                                "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

                                Comment

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