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  1. #26
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    As well as barracks, the Defence property portfolio consists of a diverse range of facilities including
    8 training facilities (accounting for 16,800 acres), 7 firing ranges (1,091 acres)

    Surely there is duplication there

    the DFTC is a training area and a range area - likewise the Glen etc

    is the Boards figures right
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  2. #27
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Hello Garda Reserve

    untouched by snipping hands
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  3. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    MOD: Thread editted, all comments regards the DF & An Bord Snip here

  4. #29
    Ex-bagger Big Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyfox View Post
    Rip rdf
    better flog that uniform on ebay before there the all these surplus uniforms hit ....

    Will there be an rdf snip down medal???
    You're even dumber than I tell people

    You might have been infected but you never were a bore

  5. #30
    .303 MMG Vickers's Avatar
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    I think that RDF members should be allowed to wear the new clipped wings badge
    “Fellow-soldiers of the Irish Republican Army, I have just received a communication from Commandant Pearse calling on us to surrender and you will agree with me that this is the hardest task we have been called upon to perform during this eventful week, but we came into this fight for Irish Independence in obedience to the commands of our higher officers and now in obedience to their wishes we must surrender. I know you would, like myself, prefer to be with our comrades who have already fallen in the fight—we, too, should rather die in this glorious struggle than submit to the enemy.” Volunteer Captain Patrick Holahan to 58 of his men at North Brunswick Street, the last group of the Four Courts Garrison to surrender, Sunday 30 April 1916.

  6. #31
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    SO far its harsh but

    maybe we needed it
    It could have been far worse. Though I think it a little unfair to demand a further reduction in numbers from the only organisation that actually bucked teh trend of public service expansion.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  7. #32
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Could someone clarify for me is the 500 members they plan to cut from the DF, PDF or RDF?
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

  8. #33
    Private 2*
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    Numbers

    The reality is that the effective strength of the RDF is probably not much more than the figure of 4,900 they recommend. This is borne out by the figures in respect of gratuities paid last year and recent figures provided in response to Dail questions on effective strength. A figure of less than 1,500 was given for the East.

  9. #34
    CQMS
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    The reduction of 20 DoD employees interests me. Since the 1980's the PDF has been reduced to 10,500 from about 16,000 and the reserve has falen from 22,000 to about 12,000. I'm open to correction on my figures. How has the numbers employed in the DoD kept pace with these reductions? Or has it? What are the old ratios and the modern ones?Will and reductions be in the actual DoD civil service ranks or will it be the likes of BFW workers etc. Do the Sir humphries always look after themselves? Is there a story here Dublinmick?

  10. #35
    Private 2*
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    Numbers

    "Last year 4,321 reservists utilised 81,000 man-days in terms of paid training. The total number on the books is 7,500."

    Willie O'Dea TD, response to Parliamentary Question on 11 May 2009

  11. #36
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Could someone clarify for me is the 500 members they plan to cut from the DF, PDF or RDF?
    I think it specifies 500 PDF and a cut of 66% in the RDF.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  12. #37
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The breakdown is in Appendix 2; The knock-on effect for both CS4s is not specified.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    It is extremely clever and devious

    I was petrified that would would recomend all our future overseas be with the UN

    because they refund whereas PFP etc you pay as you go
    No Chance, the Eu wouldn't stand for it.

    We after all now have to pay our own way in defence.

  14. #39
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    No Chance, the Eu wouldn't stand for it.

    We after all now have to pay our own way in defence.
    But we're neutral and sure everybody loves us because we're great crack. So every few years the government will shave another few hundred off the DF and eventually there won't be one.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  15. #40
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The full effect of the recommendation for Defence:

    Cut PDF personnel by 520 (4.5%) over 2-3 years
    DOD staff cut by 20
    Cuts in expenditure - € 25m in pay, € 20 m in non-pay (see below) plus savings of € 8.5m elsewhere
    Consolidation of the command structure (but preserve the 3 brigade structure) total of € 53.4m
    Reduce the RDF by at least 4900 (2 thirds)
    More barracks closures & disposal of surplus properties ASAP! (33 already identified by DOD)
    Review Cathal Brugha with a view to sale and moving of personnel to other existing DF locations
    Charge full rents to overholders of married quarters
    Disband the Equitation School
    DOD to prioritise VFM review of RDF
    Extend the timeframe of the NS fleet replacement programme
    DOD/DF charge the full cost of support to other agencies to the other agency
    DOD/DF charge the full cost of MATS missions to other Departments (with a view to potential outsourcing)
    Overseas peacekeeping expenditure to be counted as part of overseas aid (report says it is against OECD rules)
    End participate in Chad in March 2010
    Rationalise overseas commitments to a smaller number of key missions
    Deferral of the replacement of Asgard II indefinitely & terminate the sail training scheme
    No proposals with regard to Army Pensions

  16. #41
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Charge full rents to overholders of married quarters
    All married quarters should have been sold off long ago. Certainly these moochers should have been evicted before now.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  17. #42
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    Its important to remember that these are proposals, and are not set in stone. And there will be opposition to the plan.

    Asgard is a key example, they've suggested getting rid of it for years ago, but didn't.

    Chad for example is another area, were we to leave there, it would annoy the EU.

  18. #43
    Lieutenant happenin's Avatar
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    Surely the reduction in reserve could be done with the stroke of a pen. I mean is it the overall strenght they want to reduce or the effective strenght. The books have lied for years as to the numbers. just stop lying. Bord snip appeased.
    Trouble, Trouble, I tried to chase trouble but its chasing me.
    Trouble, trouble, trouble with a capitol T
    do do do do do do do da do do do. etc etc......

  19. #44
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    Have the replacement NS ships been mentioned?
    Yes.
    Not too keen on the wording. It infers that the need for new ships is not a real one, which is typical coming from a bunch of number crunchers.

    Extend the time-frame of the vessel replacement programme
    The D/Defence notes that there is a ‘requirement’ to initiate a vessel replacement programme to
    sustain the Naval Service flotilla as certain ships reach the end of their operational lifespan. In the
    current budgetary crisis, the Group recommends that this replacement programme be extended over
    a longer timeframe than initially envisaged.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%202%20FINAL.pdf
    Page 52(depending on your version of Adobe)

    The same people suggest that the Gardai Don't need new patrol cars either... Oh and Lets close lots of Garda stations, to double the mileage thats on the current ones!

    Last edited by Goldie fish; 16th July 2009 at 21:28.

  20. #45
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    Its important to remember that these are proposals, and are not set in stone. And there will be opposition to the plan.

    Asgard is a key example, they've suggested getting rid of it for years ago, but didn't.

    Chad for example is another area, were we to leave there, it would annoy the EU.
    Have the EU not ended their input there, and it's now a UN mission?

  21. #46
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The Whole thing, from the DF P.O.V

    Detailed Paper No.5 – Defence
    Table 5.1 Defence expenditure allocations
    2008
    provisional
    outturn
    2009 Revised
    Estimates
    year-onyear
    %
    change
    proposed full
    year savings
    %
    savings
    Defence
    Gross Current €849.9m €804.2m -5.4% €53.4m -6.7%
    Gross Capital €27.0m €18.4m -31.9% -
    Gross Total €876.9m €822.6m -6.2% €53.4m -6.5%
    Staff numbers 11,652 11,482 -1.5% 520 -4.5%
    Army Pensions
    Gross Current €203.7m €209.0m 2.6% - -
    Gross Capital - - - - -
    Gross Total €203.7m €209.0m 2.6% - -
    Pension numbers a 11,671 11,640 - - -
    a Includes 2 civil servants who work on Vote 37.
    Introduction
    The Defence Group of Votes consists of the Votes for the Department of Defence (D/Defence) and
    for Army Pensions.
    The primary role of the D/Defence is to support the Minister and to provide policy advice and
    support on Defence matters, including assistance with policy formulation and the implementation of
    policy as directed by the Minister. The roles of the Defence Forces are to defend the State against
    armed aggression, to aid the civil power, to participate in multinational peace support, crisis
    management and humanitarian relief operations in support of the United Nations, to provide a
    fisheries protection service in accordance with the State’s obligations as a member of the EU and to
    carry out other duties that may be assigned to them from time to time, e.g. search and rescue, air
    ambulance service, Ministerial air transport service, assistance on the occasion of natural or other
    disasters, assistance in connection with the maintenance of essential services, and assistance in
    combating oil pollution at sea.
    - 46 -
    Table 5.2 Defence resource allocation by Programme
    2009 Capital
    a
    2009
    Current
    of which -
    pay
    staff
    numbers
    b
    A. Contingent capabilities €19.4m €465.4m €362.2m 7,420
    B. On-Island security and support to other
    agencies
    €0.3m €138.6m €78.1m 1,600
    C. International peace and security €0.5m €161.1m €92.2m 1,888
    D. Defence policy, military advice and
    corporate services
    €1.2m €39.1m €28.0m 574
    E. Military pensions and gratuities - €209.0m €0.1m 2
    TOTAL €21.4m €1,013.2m €560.6m 11,484
    a It should be noted that Programme allocation include €3m capital carryover in addition to the 2009 Revised Estimates
    Volume capital allocation of €18.4m.
    b Includes Departmental and Office Civil Servants, Agency Public Servants and members of the Permanent Defence
    Forces – Estimate 2009 as provided by D/Defence
    At present there is one body in receipt of Exchequer funding operating under the aegis of the
    D/Defence, Coiste an Asgard. Exchequer funding available to this body in 2009 is €0.8m, and it
    employs 2 staff seconded from the D/Defence, the details of which are set out in the Appendix to
    this Paper.

  22. #47
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    DOD/DF charge the full cost of MATS missions to other Departments (with a view to potential outsourcing)
    Like thats going to happen..one department charging the other for services..bye bye MATs..up side..Army gets more time with HELOs....unless there is a restriction on ministerial heli travel
    Time for another break I think......

  23. #48
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Yes.
    Not too keen on the wording. It infers that the need for new ships is not a real one, which is typical coming from a bunch of number crunchers.
    Dissappointing, any holding back on this will have ramifications long into the future, in areas like drug enforcement and natural resources.

  24. #49
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Outcome of the Group’s deliberations
    In deciding the recommendations for the Defence Group of Votes, the Special Group has taken into
    consideration the detailed evaluation papers prepared by the D/Defence and by the Defence Vote
    Section in the Department of Finance. It has also taken into account that gross current Exchequer
    expenditure for this Vote has increased by about 26% since 2001 compared to an increase of over
    115% in total gross current Exchequer expenditure over the same period. This is primarily due to
    ongoing reforms in the Defence Forces over this period, including a reduction of over 900
    personnel.
    On the basis of the information and analyses made available to it and following its interaction with
    the D/Defence, the Group has identified proposals to save €53.4m. The Group has identified scope
    for a structural reduction of at least 20 staff across the Department.
    The Group is cognisant of the interdependency between all elements of Defence expenditure, which
    militates against determining savings in the Defence area on a programme-by-programme basis.
    Accordingly, the Programme allocation of savings given in Table 5.3 below is broadly indicative in
    nature. More generally, on the basis of the information and analyses made available to it and
    following its interaction with the D/Defence, the Group recommends gross reductions across the
    board of around €25m in pay and €20m in non-pay in a full year on the basis of a number of
    specific measures detailed below, as well as savings of about €8.5m elsewhere on the Vote.
    Personnel Reductions
    It should be possible to reorganise the Defence sector over a period of time so as to achieve a
    reduction of 500 personnel. The Group is conscious that delivering such a reduction in numbers
    while preserving operational capability will require considerable planning and redesign of the
    - 47 -
    organisation including consolidation of the command structure. Notwithstanding the reduction in
    numbers, the increased efficiency of the organisation should allow for the preservation of the
    existing 3 brigade structure. The Group recommends, accordingly, that the D/Defence should bring
    forward proposals for approval by the Government by the end of 2009 to allow a reduction of 500.
    This reduction could be achieved, within a 2 to 3 year period as operational requirements allow.
    Based on a proportionate reduction in the 2009 net pay provision in the Defence vote, the resultant
    saving in the pay provision should, over the 3 year period, rise to approximately €25m per annum in
    2009 prices.
    The Group has also identified scope for a structural change in the Reserve Defence Force involving
    a reduction of at least 4,900 members
    conts..

  25. #50
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The proposed indicative savings by Programme area are set out in the table below.
    Table 5.3 Defence - Total measures identified by Programme
    Annualised
    savings
    identified
    Recommended
    staffing
    reductions
    A. Contingent capabilities €36.5m 325
    B. On-Island security and support to other agencies €6.3m 70
    C. International peace and security €7.5m 90
    D. Defence policy, military advice and corporate services €3.1m 35
    Total Current Savings €53.4m 520
    Programme A – Contingent capabilities
    The purpose of this Programme is to provide for the defence of the State against armed aggression
    by maintaining and developing military capabilities. This Programme accounts for total gross
    expenditure of €484.8m in 2009 and 6,638 members of the Permanent Defence Forces, 76 civil
    servants and 706 civilian employees.
    In addition to the Group’ recommendations for reductions in current expenditure under this
    Programme, set out in table 5.4, it has also identified a number of proposals that will yield once-off
    receipts as well as deliver the potential for further operational savings in the future.
    Rationalise the army barracks
    While 10 barracks have closed over the past decade, 24 permanently occupied barracks remain.
    The dispersal of personnel over a large number of locations is a major impediment to essential
    collective training as well as imposing increased and unnecessary overheads on the Permanent
    Defence Forces in terms of barrack management, administration, maintenance and security.
    There are further opportunities to consolidate Defence Forces units into a smaller number of
    locations and to dispose of the surplus properties. While some up-front expenditure on
    infrastructural works will be needed in advance of any further consolidation into these barracks,
    there may be immediate opportunities in some locations to close and dispose of properties. The
    Special Group recommends that the D/Defence bring forward detailed proposals for closure of such
    - 48 -
    additional barracks in the shortest possible timeframe and for the disposal of surplus properties so
    as to maximise the return having regard to market conditions.
    contd.

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