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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    when that heap of horse dung the Equitation School does eventually close there are comrades up there who are going to be redeployed to other non horsey units the enlisted personnel should by right keep their grooms pay its not their fault their Unit is gone so why should they suffer fianancially
    But they won't have to deal with horse**** any more.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

  2. #102
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    RDFRA Response to An Board Snip Nua Report.

    The Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association have reacted angrily at the recommendations by "An Board Snip Nua" to cut RDF numbers by two thirds. We are particularly disappointed in the lack of communication between the board and ourselves when coming to these recommendations. This shows a complete lack of understanding by the Board of the contribution the Reserve Defence Force makes to the security of the nation and the vital social benefit to the community that the Reserve brings by encouraging young people to take civic pride in service to the state.



    The organisation has already experienced a 33% reduction in strength post the re-organisation in 2005. This decision will lead to a reversal of the significant improvements in the standard of training that the Reserve has achieved since 2005 thus making the investment made by the government in the Reserves obsolete. The Reserve Defence Force budget represents only 1% of the defence budget while giving the nation a capacity to increase its defence personnel assets by 7,200 (a 70% increase) in times of need.



    The Government should consider carefully the impact these recommendations will have on its citizens and volunteers should they be implemented. We have already seen a significant increase in the number of Irish men and women applying to join the British Army and Territorial Army since the recruitment ban to the Reserve. After negotiating a right not to involve Irish citizens in foreign wars, should the government go ahead with these recommendations they are virtually guaranteeing that this will happen as more and more Irish citizens will face combat in warzones such as Afghanistan in the service of another state, because they are denied the opportunity to serve in their own Country's Reserve.

  3. #103
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    So people suddenly decided to decided to join a full time, fully operational foreign force because they couldn't join a part time organisation at home?

    Bit of an odd one isn't it?

  4. #104
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    So people suddenly decided to decided to join a full time, fully operational foreign force because they couldn't join a part time organisation at home?

    Bit of an odd one isn't it?
    Indeed,
    Possibly the worst arguement ever put forward for retaining the RDF...

    "So they don't join another Army!"

  5. #105
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    So people suddenly decided to decided to join a full time, fully operational foreign force because they couldn't join a part time organisation at home?

    Bit of an odd one isn't it?
    The TA will accept people living in the south!

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The TA will accept people living in the south!
    I was talking about people signing up full time not the TA.

  7. #107
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    A.3 Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by two-thirds.
    Please explain to me what the above sentence means.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  8. #108
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    Budget.

    It does not refer to boots on the ground.
    This dyslexia is a cnut. I can't see the word budget anywhere in that sentence.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  9. #109
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    the RDFRA said
    "The Reserve Defence Force budget represents only 1% of the defence budget while giving the nation a capacity to increase its defence personnel assets by 7,200 (a 70% increase) in times of need."

    does the RDFRA actually believe that - and over what timeframe - and worse, does the DoD/PDF believe that?

  10. #110
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    Consider what the report is. It is not a White Paper on Defence. From the same paragraph, of which you seem to insist on quoting the title of, and ignoring the actual description.
    Consider what that sentence says. It is not written in hieroglyphics, it doesn't mention budgets and it's as vague as the Fifth Commandment.

    What the rest of the paragraph says contradicts the opening sentence so basically the cheeseparing civilians can do one, the other or both as they see fit.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  11. #111
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    the RDFRA said
    "The Reserve Defence Force budget represents only 1% of the defence budget while giving the nation a capacity to increase its defence personnel assets by 7,200 (a 70% increase) in times of need."

    does the RDFRA actually believe that - and over what timeframe - and worse, does the DoD/PDF believe that?
    I notice that they also said

    The Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association have reacted angrily at the recommendations by "An Board Snip Nua" to cut RDF numbers by two thirds.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  12. #112
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Fifth Commandement is exceptionally clear

    whereas the sixth is always problamatic

    why wouldnt you honour your father and your mother
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  13. #113
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Right, quotes from the Report:

    Th
    e Group has also identified scope for a structural change in the Reserve Defence Force involving a reduction of at least 4,900 members.
    It is recommended that the allocation for the Reserve Defence Force be reduced by two-thirds which will yield savings of €5.6m
    and a reduction in the overall numbers associated with the RDF of 4,900.

    As well as barracks, the Defence property portfolio consists of a diverse range of facilities including 8 training facilities (accounting for 16,800 acres), 7 firing ranges (1,091 acres) and 26 Reserve
    Defence Force premises (22 acres) as well as renting 51 properties for the Reserve Defence Forces.
    The D/Defence has identified 33 properties for disposal at an aggregated estimated value of €51.2m.

  14. #114
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Right, quotes from the Report:

    Th
    I know. And despite all the self-delusion, prevarication and wishful thinking by yourself and Kermit that first line still says in no uncertain terms

    Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by two-thirds.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  15. #115
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The effective strength is approx 7000
    2/3 of 7000 = 4666 (very close to 4900)

  16. #116
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Jeez, both of you two should get a room and work it out.

    Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by 2/3 would leave a 'Reserve' if you want to be absurd about it and remove two words.

    However, it comes down to cuts of one, some, or all of :
    Establishment Strength
    Actual Strength ,
    Vote Subhead for RDF Pay
    Parading Locations { RDF Halls and the like }
    Cadre Establishment and Cadre Allowance

    { no account taken of reductions in equipment }

    So GH a 2/3 Reduction : What's that imply to you ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  17. #117
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    there will be cuts but lets face it when in 10 -20 yrs time when Ireland is back in the celtic tiger mode 2 again and buying houses/ boxes for a million , and APCs for a million and all the fancy bits of kit at least with abit of luck the Equitation school will be well and truely gone , Horses barbaqued and eaten , some practical solutions to save a few bob .. set up an ammo reloading facility for all practice ammo, create jobs and save on ammo costs , and improve soldiers understaning of ballistics, sell all officers swords to antique dealers, bar owners etc, ( they can stick them up on the wall beside the pikes) , reduce the no of officers, get rid of Sam Browne belts and No I uniforms, think about buying east european (or even China ) equipment, ( small arms in particular) and I am sure the US will offer us a bunch of weapons for next to nothing, Consider a military pact with Russia or China, bases in Shannon etc and I am sure the yanks would pay for the entire army,
    Just a few wacky ideas

  18. #118
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    What the report proposes with regard to the RDF is, all this is in the report:

    More usable reserve - not a bad thing!
    Reduction in size (I'm presuming strength but it could be establishment, by at least 4,900)
    Cuts in parading locations
    Major drastic cuts in the size of cadre
    Cuts in mandays & other budgets (by 2/3)
    Priority given to the VFM report on the RDF
    Major structural reform (ie another reorg)

    In themselves most of these things are not a bad thing in the long run and will lead to a more productive reserve, however mandays will be the key to having a more usable (and therefore must be better trained) reserve.

  19. #119
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Well if you have 4900 less, you won't need as many mandays...

  20. #120
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Reduce the Reserve Defence Force by two-thirds
    .

    means exactly what it says..but is a little ambiguous in relation to what the reduction should be in.

    Size?

    Height?

    Weight?

    Numbers?
    Time for another break I think......

  21. #121
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    According to todays Sunday Business Post, the Ministers have been told they have to pick savings to the value of € 3 billion and report back to Finance by 11 September. If they don't use recommendations from An Bord Snip they have to explain why.

  22. #122
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    I managed to get some time in on a project in excel I have going.

    Some number crunching regarding the recommendations by An Bord Snip mixed in with some possible solutions.

    Anyways here goes (Just thought it might spark some debate)

    Army Reserve (Integrated Model) becomes the Establishment of the Army Reserve

    Total: 2656 + Training Authority Est

    Based on a 3 week FTT and 6 weekends training schedule (Paid) and the Integrated Grat rates

    The totals are:

    Total €6,517,981.47 (This figure includes Tech Pay + Instr Alnce to posts attracting it)
    Snr Officer Gratuity €200,790.00
    Officer Gratuity €102,510.00
    NCOs Grat €1,068,480.00
    Privates Grat €1,479,600.00

    Total €9,369,361.47


    Now for the NSR

    Based on the Current Establishment
    Total :400

    Based on a 3 week FTT and 6 weekends training schedule (Paid) and the Integrated Grat rates

    Total €982,886.14**
    Snr Officer Gratuity €8,280.00
    Officer Gratuity €42,840.00
    NCOs Grat €110,880.00
    Privates Grat €252,000.00

    Total €1,396,886.14


    ** Note: this does not include Patrol Pay. However some quick calculations of 2 weeks at sea for 400 bods at 20euro per day = Euro 112,000

    Also Officers in receipt of Professional pay are not included as I dont have the figures but are negligible






    Now here comes the punchline.


    Based on a 1 Cadre per Sub unit, your looking at less than 90. I think that would go someway to reducing the overall cost of the Reserve


    Thoughts / Comments?

  23. #123
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    Budget at 2.8m ?

    Hi Zulu,

    Good to see some valid money thoughts, because thats what will determine the future !

    Taking in consideration your estimates, what if the 5.6m savings, which is 2/3 of the 8.4m (2009 payroll estimate) is approved ? This leaves you with 2.8m for FTT, which is not very much for your 2656 reservists !
    Avg wage is 700euro, 7 days grat is 288, 14 days is 720.

    If the closure of the 33 RDF Outposts goes ahead, you could be looking at all reserve trg in occupied posts. Looking at the cadre allocation, would an RDF Office per Bks be more suitable for Admin,etc ?, and leave the trg,Q responsibility to the PDF Unit your RDF role is affiliated to ?
    So, have an office of 4 staff, all clerical based. This would surely reduce the cadre total by more ?

    Wrt the 2656, if mandatory fitness testing was involved, would you have 2656 passing it ?
    In 2008, 4300 did FTT, including 1000 recruits, so 3300 of the standing force did FTT. How many of those would pass the fitness test ?

  24. #124
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    I managed to get some time in on a project in excel I have going.

    Some number crunching regarding the recommendations by An Bord Snip mixed in with some possible solutions.

    Anyways here goes (Just thought it might spark some debate)

    Army Reserve (Integrated Model) becomes the Establishment of the Army Reserve

    Total: 2656 + Training Authority Est

    Based on a 3 week FTT and 6 weekends training schedule (Paid) and the Integrated Grat rates

    The totals are:

    Total €6,517,981.47 (This figure includes Tech Pay + Instr Alnce to posts attracting it)
    Snr Officer Gratuity €200,790.00
    Officer Gratuity €102,510.00
    NCOs Grat €1,068,480.00
    Privates Grat €1,479,600.00

    Total €9,369,361.47


    Now for the NSR

    Based on the Current Establishment
    Total :400

    Based on a 3 week FTT and 6 weekends training schedule (Paid) and the Integrated Grat rates

    Total €982,886.14**
    Snr Officer Gratuity €8,280.00
    Officer Gratuity €42,840.00
    NCOs Grat €110,880.00
    Privates Grat €252,000.00

    Total €1,396,886.14


    ** Note: this does not include Patrol Pay. However some quick calculations of 2 weeks at sea for 400 bods at 20euro per day = Euro 112,000

    Also Officers in receipt of Professional pay are not included as I dont have the figures but are negligible



    Now here comes the punchline.


    Based on a 1 Cadre per Sub unit, your looking at less than 90. I think that would go someway to reducing the overall cost of the Reserve


    Thoughts / Comments?
    You do know that the board snip report recommended cutting the RDF budget by 2/3 (€5.6 million), that makes the current total budget € 8.4 million. You proposal on mandays alone is costing more than the current RDF costs in total!

    You are proposing a total of 33 days paid annually for all, integration calls for 21 days for the infantry, that can be changed by changing the syllabus. I believe that they could get 21 days in most cases.

    Also cadre will be completed gone.

  25. #125
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    The post An Board Snip report budget for the RDF would mean 1 weeks full time per person (max), so your recommendations wouldn't wash. I probably would support a reduced reserve if the powers that be were willing to invest in it (as per the figures you said Zulu). Unfortunately it appears that what they want is a smaller LESS effective organisation.

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