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  1. #26
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    I agree with Rgj. Mission command and strategic corporal theories combined with 3 block war will see jnco and snco making some very serious command decisions

  2. #27
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    Capt Hennessy said as much in his after dinner as Tim H has posted.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    He has a very thinly veiled dig at the Typhoon during his talk, wonder how that went down with his audience.

    He is not afraid to speak his mind- debate here with Gen.Richards.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ta...ick-hennessey/

    excerpt:
    Clarke: But do you worry that the Wootton Bassett effect may make the soldiers look like victims of government policy instead of instruments of government policy? It’s very individualised.

    Richards: No, I haven’t really picked that up myself, but I can see why that is something we should be wary of. But on the whole it’s been a huge bonus for us.

    Hennessey: Is there not a danger of what one might call “Diana-fication” of our culture, being less stoical about death and injury? There might be quite serious consequences here for the army—there are things coming through the courts at the moment where the MoD is being sued by mothers of people who’ve died, who are challenging tactical decisions made on the ground that have led to the death of someone. And there are tabloid outcries about payouts to soldiers who have been badly injured being too low. But in the event that we ever did have to fight a conventional war, the sums would be prohibitively high.
    Last edited by timhorgan; 15th May 2011 at 22:51.

  4. #29
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Congratulations Jungle..what Rank are you commissioned at given your previous service and will your rank be capped in light of the fact you have come through the ranks?
    Just visiting

  5. #30
    Amadan Orion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timhorgan View Post
    He is not afraid to speak his mind- debate here with Gen.Richards.
    Yes can see that.

    On the one hand he is a radical thinker but on the other he will uphold the traditional/establishment line. Either way he seems comfortable speaking his mind.

  6. #31
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    this 'only officers command' is utter bo||ox.

    as a soldier with 22 years experience, 17 of those years as an NCO, i've commanded soldiers literally hundreds if not thousands of times - as has any other experienced NCO in the British Army (i can't speak for other armies but i guess it's the same).

    even basics like a Guard Commander commands his men, a Section Commander commands his men, a platoon 2ND IN COMMAND (2IC) is always a SNCO - the word 'commander' kind of gives it away.

    when my Boss is away is the platoon left without command? no it is not because as a SNCO i am also a commander and i run the show and command the men on a daily basis - as happens regularly everywhere throughout the Army.

    every course i have attended on leadership as an NCO has harped on about our role as commanders - and every NCO must complete and pass his CLM (COMMAND, Leadership and Management) course for each rank range. unless you pass the command (and every other phase) of CLM you will be stripped of your rank as an NCO because command is very much a core skill and daily business for any NCO.

    so if you want to believe that only Officers 'command' - then dream on because in the real army with real soldiers - they are very much commanded by NCO's.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 16th May 2011 at 00:05.
    RGJ

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    The Rifles

  7. #32
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    Of course NCO's command troops.

    A Platoon Commander will take you towards the Obj but for those last 200-300 metres you spend in contact, taking the fight to the enemy or as you work your way through compounds, it's his NCO's that will be leading the fight and getting the sections working.

    If a Section Commander has to fight through a building, he's not gonna take off his Marconi and hand it around to each Private saying "Here, the Boss wants to tell you what to do".

    To suggest NCO's don't command troops is wild.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by knocker View Post
    NCOs also have a wee thing called experience that no amount of time in the lecture hall will prepare an officer for. Irrelevant of nationality , it would be a very foolish officer, at unit level ( be that company / batallion ) who doesnt consult their relevant ncos
    Reminds me of an interesting fictional article in An Cosantoir years ago, narrated
    from the point of view of the newly commissioned 2/Lt, about to go out to
    send his first barrack guard on duty

    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle View Post
    I don't know about your Army, but we have Commissionning-From-The-Ranks programs that permit a transfer for those NCMs who wish to do so. One of the programs is aimed at Sgt-Maj ranks, and permits to transfer directly to Capt. This is what I am doing this year, and I will be a Capt sometime in June. I am happy with this, as I have done many things in my first 27 years of Service that are very difficult for Officers to get, but commissionning now gives me new challenges for the last 10 years of my career.
    Well done Jungle, congrats
    Am pretty sure the Brits do much the same thing, CFR geared for
    Sen NCO's (read WO1, WO2 level)

    To answer your question, CFR does exist in the Permanent Defence Force, however,
    these have been far and few between, and this subject has been debated
    elsewhere

    The last CFR course was run about 2 years ago, after a significant enough gap
    to the previous one, if memory serves me correctly

    I did recall the Vox Pop in the article, the most junior rank on that CFR course
    was a Corporal of 12-14 years service, the most senior was a Company Sergeant
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Capt Hennessy said as much in his after dinner as Tim H has posted.
    Thanks Danno, you have the intelligence to understand the point that Patrick Hennessy was making so well, as was Gen.Jackson- both distinguished soldiers that we can relate to.
    I find it interesting, but not surprising that some on here were in such a hurry to challenge a straightfoward discussion point made by Rudolf Neff who joined only recently - it seems some people like to hog every debate and pretend they know better than us as they have some experience in the BA. But they need to raise their game by some measure if they want me to listen to their view instead of the views of professional British soldiers with verifiable combat and leadership experience such as Hennessy or Jackson.

    Danno-Thank you for understanding the subtleties of the arguments put forward by those two fine soldiers.
    Rudolf-you are right -keep up the good work.

  10. #35
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Congratulations Jungle..what Rank are you commissioned at given your previous service and will your rank be capped in light of the fact you have come through the ranks?
    Officially, I will be commissioned in the rank of Second-Lieutenant, with simultaneous promotion to Captain.

    I will enter the promotion zone to Major 4 years after, and nothing is stopping me from going up in rank. I will never command a Rifle Coy or an Infantry Battalion, but pretty much everything else is open.
    Last edited by Jungle; 16th May 2011 at 05:07. Reason: typo
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle View Post
    Officially, I will be commissioned in the rank of Second-Lieutenant, with simultaneous promotion to Captain.

    I will enter the promotion zone to Major 4 years after, and nothing is stopping me from going up in rank. I will never command a Rifle Coy or an Infantry Battalion, but pretty much everything else is open.
    félicitations, mon vieux!!

  12. #37
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    so i'm just making this all up am i Horgan?

    the fact that you believe only Officers command men shows how little you understand about the modern military and how redundency is built into everything we do - and that includes having the Boss of a platoon taken out where his SNCO will take command of the men.

    we always train 'one up' and in any promotion course exercises where Corporals become Platoon Sergeants and Sergeants will become Platoon Commanders - we do this so we can all do the job of - wait for it - "commanding men".

    but i'm glad you said you won't listen to me so be a good lad and put me on your ignore list please.

    now excuse me while i command my men on this journey from Northern Ireland to our base in England, and guess what - our Boss remained in England - how did we ever get this far without him?!
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 16th May 2011 at 16:38.
    RGJ

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  13. #38
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    I agree with RGJ on this one-

    Privates are expected to be able to take over and run the show should the need arise, thats why

    on simple things like Bk Gd when the BOS/Gd Comd are away the senior man takes over,

    likewise all Soldiers irregardles of rank are under command of someone- the chief is under the

    command of the minister etc etc etc.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  14. #39
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Well done on the promotion Jungle- it is great to see lads who have worn the tshirt and walked the walk

    get promoted.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  15. #40
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    thats right Hedgie its what soldiers like us the world over know as the 'Chain of Command' and it certainly goes way beyond officers - right down to the level of seniority among Riflemen as you rightly pointed out.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    so i'm just making this all up am i Horgan?

    the fact that you believe only Officers command men shows how little you understand about the modern military and how redundency is built into everything we do - and that includes having the Boss of a platoon taken out where his SNCO will take command of the men.

    we always train 'one up' and in any promotion course exercises where Corporals become Platoon Sergeants and Sergeants will become Platoon Commanders - so we can all do the job of - wait for it - "commanding men".

    but i'm glad you said you won't listen to me so be a good lad and put me on your ignore list please.

    now excuse me while i command my men on this journey from Northern Ireland to our base in the England, and guess what - our Boss remained in England - how did we ever get this far without him?!
    Hi RGJ,
    You are putting words in my mouth- what I did was quote General Sir Michael Jackson and Captain Patrick Hennessy who I know for a fact have distinguished military careers and substantial real combat experience. Please read Jackson's paper and stop trying to be too clever by half-we all have access to the thinking of the men on the ground such as Jackson and Hennessy, they have walked the walk so can talk the talk.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Congratulations on the promotion Jungle.

    As for "NCOs, in general terms, do not command soldiers"; it would be my experience that while an officer may well be in charge, I as a Private soldier (or indeed a Signaller) would very much be under the command of my NCOs.

    I believe George S. Patton said it best.....

    "Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."

    S & S,
    I fully agree with as Gen. M. Jackson also outlines in his excellent paper:


    There are many ways of describing the role of the NCO and the place he holds in the Army. In simplistic terms the commissioned officer leads, commands and directs; the
    NCO organises and administers and the soldier executes.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The best comparison I saw with civvy street is NCOs are supervisors, Officers are management.
    GF,
    Another comparison might be that of Doctor and Nurse- both professionals but with clearly defined roles.

  19. #44
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timhorgan View Post
    they have walked the walk so can talk the talk.
    elaborate on this please Horgan.

    does not serving in Afghanistan exclude me from 'walking the walk' or even 'talking the talk' for that matter?

    i guess my experience in Iraq or two tours of Bosnia, nearly 7 years in Northern Ireland tempered by 22 years colour service as a serving SNCO is not a patch on your boat service in Rhodesia.

    i am soon to be posted back to battalion to serve in Afghanistan, but i have already 'walked the walk' - just down many different paths.

    what ever will you do when i have served there?
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 16th May 2011 at 16:52.
    RGJ

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    The Rifles

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    i am soon to be posted back to battalion to serve in Afghanistan.
    Enjoy it mate, I'm rather jealous.

  21. #46
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Officially, I will be commissioned in the rank of Second-Lieutenant, with simultaneous promotion to Captain.

    I will enter the promotion zone to Major 4 years after, and nothing is stopping me from going up in rank. I will never command a Rifle Coy or an Infantry Battalion, but pretty much everything else is open.
    Seems fair enough, seems the system takes your track record and proven abilities into consideration in your promotion the fact that you won't be capped.

    Used to be the case here that CFRs were non staff qualified and held at Cmdt or Lt. Cdr even though they may have held posts above the rank.

    I believe that CFRS can now be staff qualified these days although I don't know of anyone who crossed over the line.

    i guess my experience in Iraq or two tours of Bosnia, nearly 7 years in Northern Ireland tempered by 22 years colour service
    the 7 years in NI is very poignant when you put it into perspective..one third of your career .

    What was the lenght of tours in Iraq and Bosnia just to quantify how much time you have spent away from home so to speak.

    I think that alone would shut some up when it comes to comitment to the job and experience gained.
    Just visiting

  22. #47
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Seems fair enough, seems the system takes your track record and proven abilities into consideration in your promotion the fact that you won't be capped.

    Used to be the case here that CFRs were non staff qualified and held at Cmdt or Lt. Cdr even though they may have held posts above the rank.

    I believe that CFRS can now be staff qualified these days although I don't know of anyone who crossed over the line.
    The most recent course had modules to qualify them as Adjutant etc


    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...&highlight=CFR

  23. #48
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    the 7 years in NI is very poignant when you put it into perspective..one third of your career .

    What was the lenght of tours in Iraq and Bosnia just to quantify how much time you have spent away from home so to speak.

    I think that alone would shut some up when it comes to comitment to the job and experience gained.
    Iraq was a 6 monther, so was Bosnia (twice). i also served for 4 months in the Falklands aswell as 3 tours of 6 weeks each in Jordan, aswell as a month in Italy and weeks here and there all over Europe, aswell as 6 months in Canada from where i have just come back, aswell as 3 other tours of 2 months each out there and not forgetting 2 tours of Cyprus - each of 2 and a half years and 4 years in Germany. oh and there was 2 months in Kenya too.

    not to mention the amount of time spent on exercise or on build-up training for operations in other barracks away from home.

    in all i spent only 2 years of my first 10 years in England and also only the past 2 years in England with 2 years in Wales before that.

    a total of only 6 years of my 22 years service have been in Great Britain, 17 of those years as a an NCO, not worth jack sh|t though to certain people who 'talk the talk' but will never ever 'walk the walk' of any military service.
    RGJ

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  24. #49
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    Let's get back to basics, shall we? Go for a Commission anyday, instead of joining the enlisted ranks. You bear more responsibility but earn far more, enjoy much better terms and conditions, will recieve much, much greater opportunities for sport,education , promotion and advancement, overseas tours (and jollies on the State nipple) and will automatically be treated with a much greater level of personal respect. You'll earn it but will gain entry into a superb post-Service network, which will ease you into a good number when you leave.
    regards
    GttC

  25. #50
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Do the DF ever pay for other ranks to do night courses/part time degrees?
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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