39 Month Cadetship

[duffy]

Any ideas why it took over 3 years for the cadet class that were just commisioned to get their wings? Seems a long way over the 21months talked about on military.ie

[paul]

The cadet's just teach them how to be officers, the air corp teaches them how to fly.

[duffy]

I understand that, but they are put down as 7 months officer training followed by 14 months pilot training followed by getting wings. Just curious why it would have taken that class almost twice as long?

[DeV]

There are lots of things that can an effect on flight training of cadets as well, for example:
- bad weather
- aircraft availability
- instructor availability
etc etc


There are other conditions that would have an effect on it, I'm not 100% sure but these new officers joined around the time the cadetship was reduced to 15 months for army cadets. AC cadets may now do 15 months in the Cadet School and not just 7 as was the case before.

Also the syllabus has probably changed since the introduction of the PC-9 and the info hasn't been updated.

There would probably have been a delay after the accident involving the PC-9 for a number of reasons:
- checks on the rest of the fleet
- less aircraft available
- giving of evidence
- shock, funerals, etc

RIP

[watcher365]

Duffy,
The Air Corps Cadetship takes longer than the army equivalent due to a number of reasons. Firstly, they must complete the initial stage 1 of the Army Cadetship before returning to Baldonnel to complete the entire IAA ATPL theoretical syllabus including sitting in-house then IAA external examinations. They then progress onto survival training and computer based training on the Pilatus PC9M. Then it's onto the PC9M simulator prior to finally taking to the skies for a 180hr flying course. This covers standard CPL requirements as well as formation flying, aerobatics and low level tactical flying among other disciplines. All in all, it is a very intensive ground and air training course and therefore requires this length of time to complete. One must also take into account the tragic events of 12th October when considering the time taken for the course to finish.

The Cadetship should also be compared the European equivalents, some of which can take upwards of 4 years to complete.

Regards

[DeV]

Duffy is refering to what it says on military.ie -

An Air Corps Cadet completes a 21 month course initially (seven months) at The Cadet School, Military College, Defence Forces Training Centre, Curragh Camp, Co Kildare and later at Basic Flying Training Wing, Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Co Dublin. On successful completion of training he/she joins the Commissioned ranks as an Air Corps Officer/Pilot.

[johnny no stars]

I've heard that in recent years instructor availability has become an issue, but that the air corps are doing everything in their power to rectify this. Better to spend 3 years getting top knotch pilots than 21 months to keep to the "official line".

[GoneToTheCanner]

Ah, now, come on.Taking three years to train fellas to qualify on a turbine single and a Cessna 172 is more than a bit much, even if they are allegedly short of instructors and given that a significant chunk of the course is not weather-dependent. Air Corps courses always had a bit of slack in them but taking three years is a piss-take.
regards
GttC

[DublinPilot]

Have to agree with gttc - 3 years is extreme.

I think a lot of people seem to buy into the Air Corps own propaganda far too easily.

7 months in the Curragh is tough going but it's now a lot easier than it used to be. - a good friend of mine who was an Air Corps cadet in the early 90's told me about his experiences there and after talking to a few guys who did it during the last nine years things have definitely become far more easygoing than they were - though that is not to say it is all that easy these days.

The last time I talked to an Air Corps Pilot they did cover the ATPL syllabus but they do not sit the actual IAA exams according to what I have been told - that was about two years ago so things might have changed regarding that but I doubt it.

ATPL's take about six months and survival training would take about two weeks at most I suspect. The Air Corps are well established on the PC.9 now and given the resources and instructor to student ratio available to an a/c cadet class of 10 and under I do not see how all flight training could not be finished within a year.(I am a civie pilot btw)

I'd imagine the Cadets are given use of a laptop or something to complete their cbt on the PC.9 which in the airline world usually takes about 3 weeks for aircraft with much more to learn about.

With the advent of the PC.9 the Air Corps Wings course is not as restricted as it was in the Marchetti days where they did not have the ceiling to get above the usual Irish weather restrictions which would restrict training only so far as attaining PPL standard in the civillian world and the VFR aspects of a CPL. Also as far as the Air Corps practicing formation flying and aerobatics - these take practice to master but that said they are not particularly time consuming either - my source of information there is my old Instrument Rating instructor who flew fast jets in the USAF and he definitely knew what he was talking about in such matters.

Regarding the PC.9 fleet being grounded following the really tragic crash recently the very next day I saw an Air Corps PC.9 flying at low level over Tallaght for about 10-15 mins and at the same time the papers were reporting that they were grounded....

I'm not trying to put the Air Corps down but all in all 3 years definitely seems strange to me anyway.

[Sluggie]

Would it have anyting to do with the fact that after they recieved their wings there was no-one else to train?

No air corpse cadets in last year's intake. Were they stalling to see if they could get some cadets into this year's (delayed) competition?

No bluffwaffe cadets this year either.

It will be hard to justify all that training manpower and infrastructure.

[watcher365]

To put it into perspective, the flying portion of this years course will be complete by the 9th of December. They commenced flying in late January and have had to contend with the shutdown of airspace in April and other issues (bad weather in May) So this gives you an idea of the length of the flying portion of the course. The vast majority of the AC cadetship is taken up with Officer Training and to compare it to a CPL is simply not comparing like for like.

Dublin Pilot, the ATPL syllabus is taught in Baldonnel and the exams are taken in BOTH Baldonnel and with the IAA. Also, what you suspect to be the case in relation to survival and other courses is not necessarily the case. Thirdly, as with all basic flying, no matter how advanced an aircraft you fly, weather will impact in certain areas. Basic visual flying which requires ground contact, VFR navigation, IFR navigation (PC9 not icing certified) to name but a few. This can have a serious impact on flying operations.

Yes, the aircraft were flying shortly after the accident of 12th October last year. Any idea why that might have been?........ever think that they were practicing for the ceremonial flypast for the deceased crew. Also, while the aircraft may have been released into service, the fragile state of Cadet Jevens' classmates following the accident has to be taken into account.

Don't mean to shout down anyone as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to term it a 'pisstake' without have a real knowledge of the course, is a bit off the mark.

Regards

[DeV]

the fragile state of Cadet Jevens' classmates following the accident has to be taken into account.

And the instructors colleagues!

http://www.military.ie/careers/booklets/Final%20Cadet%20Booklet%20(Aug%202010).pdf

AC Cadetship is now:
Cadet School - 9 months
Flight Training - 15 months

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
watcher,
whilst there are many differences between a bog standard civvie CPL and a Don cadetship, there has always been a lot of slack/fat built into the duration of the cadet system for such military things as parades and ceremonies. If you did away with all the bullshit, you'd have cadets trained in much less time. Other Militaries that take a minimum of four years just to qualify a cadet are also giving their candidates degrees at the same time.They also tend to have much larger budgets to play with and a much bigger carrer path for their putative leaders to follow.
Ultimately, the Don suits itself, as it has always done.
regards
GttC

[watcher365]

Gttc,

I understand your point of view but I have to add that your understanding of the flying Cadetship may be slightly outdated. In relation to the issuing of a degree you need to understand that most of the foreign air forces which you speak of do not themselves issue a degree, rather they do in collaboration with local Universities. You speak very authoritatively about the Air Corps so I'm sure you are aware of the current agreement with DIT in relation to the Air Corps Cadetship?

Having reviewed a lot of your posts, it would appear that you have an 'axe to grind' with the Air Corps. While you may have valid points in certain areas, I feel you do have a tendency to allow your feelings (I would argue, vitriol) towards the Air Corps, colour your postings.

I would hope that, in the current climate particularly, that those on these boards (and others) would try not to continuously knock the DF in general. By comparison to other public sector organisations, it has done an exemplary job in reducing costs while maintaining or improving the service to the public who pays for it. We Irish are too quick to knock ourselves.

I have no wish to enter a tit-for-tat argument on this, it is merely my opinion.

Regards.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
What they do, degree wise, in the Don, these days,I don't know. It used to be the case that Cadets got their flying training in lieu of a degree, whereas Army/Navy cadets went to Galway or the RN College for theirs. With regard to foreign Mlitaries, I was always led to believe that, for example, a USAF pilot left the Academy after four yrs with a degree and a basic pilot qualification and then went onto advance pilot training. So far as I know, CPL theoretical training is only a Level 6 FETAC here.
As for having an axe to grind against the Don, I agree.Too many times, I saw stupid, wasteful decisions being taken by my alleged superiors and there was an absolute institutional refusal to accept that enlisted personnel might actually know what they were talking about and might have a better solution to a problem. There was also an ingrained refusal to accept that civilian organisations might do anything better. It's a lot better now than when I was there but the place still has it's moments.
regards
GttC