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  1. #1
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Court Martial & punishment in the DF

    First off, no reference to the case just completed.

    In general terms what sentencing powers does a CM have and what are the most common types of charges? Also how regular are they?
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  2. #2
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    In general terms what sentencing powers does a CM have?
    When I last had to sit through military law lectures they could impose the death penalty in war time. That's no longer permissible. So Life imprisonment down to a stern lecture and a warning to be a good boy or girl in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    and what are the most common types of charges?
    Absence probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    Also how regular are they?
    Col. McCourt looks the picture of Judicial Health so I presume he's pretty regular.

    Say NO to violence against Women

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    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  3. #3
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Ok Groundhog, I walked into that one.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  4. #4
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The 168 is a catch all. Offences that could be dealt with under other codes are most often dealt with under 168.

  5. #5
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Kermit.

    Just wondering how is it decided whether an offence should go to CM or be dealt with by the CO.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  6. #6
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The Defendant can chose to go to CM if he/she is unhappy with the verdict of the CO.
    I believe (but am open to correction) the CO can also elect to have the offence dealt with by CM, depending on the severity.

  7. #7
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    Offences under Military Law

    124. Capital offences by commanders when in action.
    125. Capital offences by any person in relation to the enemy.
    126. Offences punishable more severely on active service than at other times.
    127. Offences related to prisoners of war.
    128. Mutiny with violence.
    129. Mutiny without violence.
    130. Offences related to mutiny.
    131. Disobedience to superior officer.
    132. Striking or offering violence to a superior officer.
    133. Insubordinate behaviour.
    134. Disorders.
    135. Desertion.
    136. Connivance at desertion.
    137. Absence without leave.
    138. False statement in respect of leave.
    139. Scandalous conduct of an officer.
    140. Ill-treatment of inferiors.
    141. False accusation against officer or man.
    142. Drunkenness.
    142A. Drugs, etc.
    143. Malingering or maiming.
    144. Dilatory conduct in regard to trials.
    145. Negligent or wilful interference with lawful custody.
    146. Escape from custody.
    147. Obstruction of officer or man carrying out police duties.
    148. Obstruction of civil power.
    149. Losing, stranding or hazarding State ships.
    150. Unauthorised carriage on ships or aircraft.
    151. Wrongful acts in relation to aircraft.
    152. Inaccurate certificate as regards aircraft.
    153. Low flying.
    154. Disobedience of orders of captain of aircraft.
    155. Fraud by persons in charge of property.
    156. Stealing, embezzlement, etc., of property.
    157. Destruction, loss or improper disposal of property.
    158. Bribery, corruption and fraud.
    159. Negligent or furious driving of service vehicles.
    160. Unauthorised use of service vehicles.
    161. Offences in relation to courts-martial, etc.
    162. False evidence.
    163. Disturbances, etc., in billets.
    164. Fraudulent enlistment.
    165. General offences in relation to enlistment.
    166. Negligent performance of duties.
    167. Offences in relation to documents.
    168. Conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline.
    169. Offences punishable by ordinary law.
    169A. Trial by court-martial of treason and certain murders and attempts.

    Most common charge is Section 168. Courts Martial sits about once a month, there's a calendar on military.ie somewhere.

    Punishments a Court Martial may impose (on an Officer)
    A. Imprisonment for life or any specified period.
    B. Repealed by 14/1997, ss. 1 (commencement), 14, sch. 2, par. 9.
    C. Repealed by 14/1997, ss. 1 (commencement), 14, sch. 2, par. 9.
    D. Dismissal with ignominy from the Defence Forces.
    E. Dismissal from the Defence Forces.
    E1. Where the person convicted is an officer, reduction to, —
    (a) if he holds a commissioned army rank, any lower commissioned army rank,
    or
    (b) if he holds a commissioned naval rank, any lower commissioned naval rank.
    F. Forfeiture in the prescribed manner of seniority of rank, either in the Defence Forces or in the portion thereof in which the offender is serving or in both, or, in the case of an officer whose promotion depends on the length of service, forfeiture of all or any part of his service for the purpose of promotion.
    G. A fine not exceeding —
    (a) in case the person convicted is an officer, an amount equal to ten days’ pay of that officer, or
    (b) in case the person convicted is not an officer but was an officer when the offence was committed, an amount equal to ten days’ pay of that person as an officer, or
    (c) in any other case, an amount equal to the maximum fine awardable for the time being by a court-martial to an officer holding the rank of second-lieutenant who is in receipt of the maximum pay applicable to that rank
    H. Severe reprimand
    I. Reprimand.

    Punishments a Court Martial may impose (on a Man)
    A. Imprisonment for life or any specified period.
    B. Repealed by 14/1997, ss. 1 (commencement), 14, sch. 2, par. 11.
    C. Repealed by 14/1997, ss. 1 (commencement), 14, sch. 2, par. 11.
    D. Discharge with ignominy from the Defence Forces.
    E. Discharge from the Defence Forces.
    F. Detention for any term not exceeding two years.
    G. Where the person convicted is a non-commissioned officer, reduction to,—
    (a) if he holds a non-commissioned army rank, any lower noncommissioned army rank, or
    (b) if he holds a non-commissioned naval rank, any lower noncommissioned naval rank.
    H. A fine not exceeding,
    (a) in case the person convicted is a non-commissioned officer, an amount equal to nine days’ pay of that non-commissioned officer, or
    (b) in case the person convicted is a private or a seaman, an amount equal to six days’ pay of that private or seaman, as may be appropriate, or
    (c) in case the person convicted is not a member of the Defence Forces but was a non-commissioned officer when the offence was committed, an amount equal to nine days’ pay of that person as a non-commissioned officer, or
    (d) in case the person convicted is not a member of the Defence Forces but was a private or a seaman when the offence was committed, an amount equal to six days’ pay of that person as a private or a seaman, as may be appropriate, or
    (e) in any other case, an amount equal to the maximum fine awardable for the time being by a court-martial to a private of the highest grade who is in receipt of the maximum pay applicable to that rank and Grade.
    I. Where the person convicted is a non-commissioned officer, forfeiture in the prescribed manner of seniority of rank.
    J. Severe reprimand.
    K. Reprimand.

    Have a read of Part 4 of the Defence Act Restatement. It makes for interesting reading.
    You're wrong. There's nothing interesting in the Defence Act.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  8. #8
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Thanks Goldie,

    I thought it would be a combination of the seriousness of the offence and precedent.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  9. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  10. #10
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The Defendant can chose to go to CM if he/she is unhappy with the verdict of the CO.
    I believe (but am open to correction) the CO can also elect to have the offence dealt with by CM, depending on the severity.
    that's pretty much how it goes for us too Goldie with the addition of rank restrictions, you can see the our process here:

    www - Courts Martial
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  11. #11
    CQMS ARNGScout's Avatar
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    151. Wrongful acts in relation to aircraft.
    This is my favorite - it sounds like someone who had their way with an aircraft.
    There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

  12. #12
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    I always liked:
    159. Negligent or furious driving of service vehicles
    Quite what you'd have to do to be engaging in "furious" driving isn't clear, but it sounds fun.

  13. #13
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The Defendant can chose to go to CM if he/she is unhappy with the verdict of the CO.
    I believe (but am open to correction) the CO can also elect to have the offence dealt with by CM, depending on the severity.
    There has been some significant changes to the procedures in the Defence Ammendment Act 2007. The type of charges that can be heard at a summary investigation level (i.e. CO) has been reduced. So if the charge is not specified on the list that can be heard at CO level then either the investigating officer decides that there is no case to answer or he/she recommends that the case be dealt with at a limited court martial (which what the sailor was heard under).

    Someone who is being dealt with at summary investigation level can also opt to have his/her case heard at limited court martial level at the outset, thereby stopping the summary investigation.

  14. #14
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    You can find what those sections actually cover in this document

    http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/822d1f14e2cf8fd680257021004b170f/$FILE/Restatement.pdf

    Wrongful actions in relation to aircraft are those which cause danger to the aircraft and/or passengers

    Furious driving AFAIK is the equivalent of dangerous driving

  15. #15
    Cut backs luchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I always liked:

    Quite what you'd have to do to be engaging in "furious" driving isn't clear, but it sounds fun.


    Not really though.

    All it needs is for a PA to consider your that you are driving without due care.

    32km/h on the quays would be furious driving.
    Without supplies no army is brave.

    —Frederick the Great,

    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

  16. #16
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
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    It sounds not unlike the US laws either. Formal title is "Uniform Code of Military Justice". Our most common offenses are AWOL or Disorderly Conduct, again, like in Ireland, a lot of this is handled at the Company Level but you have the options of taking it higher.

    A

  17. #17
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I always liked:

    Quite what you'd have to do to be engaging in "furious" driving isn't clear, but it sounds fun.
    There is an old DMP act that created the offence of "furious riding of a horse". It is frequently used today when dealing with certain elements who frequent the Smithfield market. It is only on the statute books for the dublin metropolitan area.
    If the horse was frawthing at the mouth, that was sufficient evidence to suggest it was being ridden furiously........

  18. #18
    Gunner
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    151. Wrongful acts in relation to aircraft.
    I'm in Air Defence, which means from time to time I, along with a few others, fire live rounds in the approximate direction of an Air Corp aircraft. Could I be Court Martialled? Bearing in mind I am trying to destroy the yoke its pulling.
    ====================================
    Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
    ====================================

  19. #19
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ackack658 View Post
    I'm in Air Defence, which means from time to time I, along with a few others, fire live rounds in the approximate direction of an Air Corp aircraft. Could I be Court Martialled? Bearing in mind I am trying to destroy the yoke its pulling.
    I'm also reminded of the anecdote about an exasperated pilot signalling to an AA battery "I'm pulling the target, not pushing it!"

  20. #20
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with a bit of battle innoculation
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

  21. #21
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    Offences under Military Law

    132. Striking or offering violence to a superior officer.
    Pardon me Sir, but would you like a kick in the nuts?

  22. #22
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS Gass View Post
    Pardon me Sir, but would you like a kick in the nuts?
    I thought that if you said "With all due respect sir" at the beginning of the sentence you got away with it

  23. #23
    CQMS
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS Gass View Post
    Pardon me Sir, but would you like a kick in the nuts?
    That's threatening violence. Offering violence is where you swing for him but don't connect.

  24. #24
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggie View Post
    That's threatening violence. Offering violence is where you swing for him but don't connect.
    The crime of failing to strike an officer?

  25. #25
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    offering violence sounds a bit weird..."ill sell you that schlap there boss...2 euro! €1.50! 5 euro!!!!"
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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