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  • Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    I feel embarrassed quoting myself-

    In relation to the recent "Prick Gate" incident




    From this weeks letters in this weeks Sunday Tribune

    and I know its only the opinion of one man- but think of tip of the ice berg

    and then think of all the great work every lad who ever donned the uniform has done

    the great work in the PR battle undertaken by Pat O Connor- the Lads heading down the

    Panama canal- the lads just back from Kosovo and Chad etc
    The attention span of the public is very limited, most of them have already forgotten about prick gate, if indeed it even registered, which I doubt, people have more pressing concerns, even in the good times.

    Be honest hedgehog, did the murders in mountjoy prison a few years ago register with you.

    As for the man himself, sometimes its worth the effort to get rid of somebody. In civvy street if you sack somebody, even if you loose in the Employment appeals tribunal, often what you end up paying out is a pitance.

    Comment


    • even if you loose in the Employment appeals tribunal, often what you end up paying out is a pitance.
      its not the paying out is the issue. Its the possibility of reinstatement which then puts the whole disciplinary process under scrutiny and frightens people from using it again less you get it wrong again.

      I have a guy who has been on paid leave for three years pending the outcome of a court case he took against the HSE because of unfair dismissal.....he won.

      Little problem is what do I do with him now..he needs to be retrained, not to mention the kudos for beating the system.

      It wasn't me who put him that place as he was on suspension before I was even hired....

      Thats the reality of dismissal, not the money but the knock on effect.

      If thet cmdt was to be reinstated what CO would ever try it again

      Would every man and his dog them take everything to Court Martial given he could appeal any outcome and probably reinstated.

      But the again the muppet that allowed to elevate to the point where he had to go to court martial being the idiot in question

      As for the peice in the tribune..who reads the ****ing tribune anyway....rag!
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • As for the peice in the tribune..who reads the ****ing tribune anyway....rag!
        Circulation figures for the Sunday Tribunefor teh period Jun 09- Dec 09 were 6,0344 per week (Average)

        they also have a web site where they record on average 1,720 hits per day which equates to 12,040

        hits on their web site per week- which thanks to my I Phone calculator makes on average 626,080 hits

        per year

        ( Off course some of the hits could be form the same person)



        But the again the muppet that allowed to elevate to the point where he had to go to court martial being the idiot in question
        You hit the nail on the head there Murph-

        As Soldiers we are thought that we dont willy nilly engage the enemny- we consider the tactical situation

        is the targer near enough- clear enough- is it worthwhile engaging etc etc-

        The Commissioned equivalent of a 667 B would have and should have sufficed here
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          its not the paying out is the issue. Its the possibility of reinstatement which then puts the whole disciplinary process under scrutiny and frightens people from using it again less you get it wrong again.

          I have a guy who has been on paid leave for three years pending the outcome of a court case he took against the HSE because of unfair dismissal.....he won.
          !
          I don't understand how he can be paid leave if he was dismissed? Did he get an injunction or something.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Captain Edmund Blackadder View Post
            Is he actually serious?
            He sounds like a complete muppet and a member of what Jessup correctly refers to as the Joe Duffy Appreciation society, so I would say yes he's serious - but a muppet.
            If at first you don't succeed, then call in an airstrike.

            Comment


            • I don't understand how he can be paid leave if he was dismissed? Did he get an injunction or something.
              Dismissed but the four 4 stage appeals procedure in the HSE which makes it almost impossible to be actually dismissed so while the appeals procedure was in place he had to be paid.

              The appeals failed and then he brought it court where the dismissal was deemed to be unfair and he is to be reinstated.

              Having heard the ins and outs of the manner in which he was dismissed he had a good case and was wrongfully dismissed.

              But his return to work is going to be very difficult as the allegations laid against him while deemed to be false just don't go away that easily.
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

              Comment


              • hits on their web site per week- which thanks to my I Phone calculator makes on average 626,080 hits
                Probably reading the jobs page.. given the unemployment figures its probably yuppies looking for work.

                But then again it could be the sports pages....

                have they a cartoons section or decent problem page?

                Back to the letter..Bit like a 'Jim Brady letter' Brady used to write letters to the Irish Press every week cribbing about the state the navy was in.. then he wrote a book a bout how shite the navy was when he was in it......then the navy bought loads of new gear so he had nothing to crib a about and shut up....and the the Irish Press closed down.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • Frm my reading of the Indo, isn't there more charges to come..

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Dismissed but the four 4 stage appeals procedure in the HSE which makes it almost impossible to be actually dismissed so while the appeals procedure was in place he had to be paid.

                    The appeals failed and then he brought it court where the dismissal was deemed to be unfair and he is to be reinstated.

                    Having heard the ins and outs of the manner in which he was dismissed he had a good case and was wrongfully dismissed.

                    But his return to work is going to be very difficult as the allegations laid against him while deemed to be false just don't go away that easily.
                    Four stages are a bit excessive, for all concerned, much better for all sides not to drag it out too long

                    let me guess, somebody made serious allegations, that were baseless, an investigation was commissioned, they gave it to some manager who was clueless, had something else to do, who decided the person must be guilty and therefore didn't bother to interview witnesses or look at evidence, they let it drag on for months, then eventually all the other managers involved decided to sack the person because they were afraid of looking incompetant, and hoped he'd give up?
                    Last edited by paul g; 24 June 2010, 16:52.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      Its the possibility of reinstatement which then puts the whole disciplinary process under scrutiny and frightens people from using it again less you get it wrong again.

                      If thet cmdt was to be reinstated what CO would ever try it again

                      Would every man and his dog them take everything to Court Martial given he could appeal any outcome and probably reinstated.

                      But the again the muppet that allowed to elevate to the point where he had to go to court martial being the idiot in question
                      Looks like your right on this one Murph

                      Air Corps officer gets stay on dismissal
                      Thursday, 24 June 2010 13:04
                      An Air Corps officer who was dismissed from the Defence Forces for using abusive language to his superior officer must keep his job until his appeal is decided, a court has ruled.


                      ...........

                      Lawyers for the Director of Military Prosecutions had argued there would disciplinary problems with having a senior officer who had been convicted of using abusive language to a superior officer back at work.

                      http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0624/donoghuen.html
                      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                      Comment


                      • l
                        et me guess, somebody made serious allegations, that were baseless, an investigation was commissioned, they gave it to some manager who was clueless, had something else to do, who decided the person must be guilty and therefore didn't bother to interview witnesses or look at evidence, they let it drag on for months, then eventually all the other managers involved decided to sack the person because they were afraid of looking incompetant, and hoped he'd give up?
                        almost there.. The manager called in an independant enquiry board to interview those who were his supervisors, who then were questioned in matter not relating as they knew nothing about its as it had not happened in the work place ,to the original allegation and instead tried to build a case based on his poor attendance and when dismissed these were the grounds he was didmissed on and not the allegation that had been made, eventhough he had a poor attendance record he was never challenged on it.

                        the manager had made the decison to dismiss him on the allegation but when the allegation was found to be false the had still him dismissed albeit with out a case, so they attempt to build a case from nothing to justify the action.

                        So it wasn't just the hospital manager, the HR department were involved as well.

                        The original allegation was unfounded and the attempt to build a case were called in to question by the judge and duly thrown out.

                        To date no one from the side who tried to fit the guy up has faced and disciplinary action and there has been no investigation to date into the events.

                        Lost yet?


                        Lawyers for the Director of Military Prosecutions had argued there would disciplinary problems with having a senior officer who had been convicted of using abusive language to a superior officer back at work.
                        Off course they are concern given how over zealous they we in to have him convicted and dismissed. they never thought that he might now be with a hairs breadth of re instatement and whether he is or isn't they will never be able to prosecute acse successfully again as the whole media speclation around the issue, both the charge punishment and actual offence have made a mockery in the public eye of what was something that could have been dealt with far less publicity.

                        the crucifixion of the Navy Bloke on a very suspect charge probably gave the prosecution a false elan in which they believed they were doing this for the greater good and were willing to take on all comers. the never reckon with a guy who wasn't going to play the game to win.

                        Now two scenarios.

                        He is re instate and left serve out his time and stuck in a office where he doesn't get to call his his superior officers pricks, Stick him witha letter of reprimand and take away his seniority for 3 years.. problem solved.

                        I don't doubt he did it and needs some action

                        They discharge him..he writes a book, goes on the late late show uncovers the whole thing and no doubt a shit load of other stuff and becomes the next big thing

                        If he is a good as the papers make him out to be and he is pissed off enough I reckon heads will roll as this isn't some bimbo love struck corporal having a bitch.This is a senior Commissioned officer with a good track record after being dumped on.

                        I know what I'd do
                        Last edited by apod; 16 January 2013, 21:59.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          l

                          almost there.. The manager called in an independant enquiry board to interview those who were his supervisors, who then were questioned in matter not relating as they knew nothing about its as it had not happened in the work place ,to the original allegation and instead tried to build a case based on his poor attendance and when dismissed these were the grounds he was didmissed on and not the allegation that had been made, eventhough he had a poor attendance record he was never challenged on it.

                          the manager had made the decison to dismiss him on the allegation but when the allegation was found to be false the had still him dismissed albeit with out a case, so they attempt to build a case from nothing to justify the action.

                          So it wasn't just the hospital manager, the HR department were involved as well.

                          The original allegation was unfounded and the attempt to build a case were called in to question by the judge and duly thrown out.

                          To date no one from the side who tried to fit the guy up has faced and disciplinary action and there has been no investigation to date into the events.

                          Lost yet?


                          Murph,

                          Not only do i follow it, I've seen something very similar in other public sector organisations, and it wasn't in ireland. there is something about the culture in working for the government institutions, managers seem to think that they'll get away with murder, and often do.

                          Comment


                          • They get away with it because they are not accountable for the cost, both financial and other costs.
                            I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                            Who is number 1?

                            Comment


                            • It goes back to how they got the job in the first place.

                              The public service is like the defence forces that those who hold the reins of power didn't always get there because they were the best at what they did but because the were the only ones who stuck a round when times got tough.

                              Before the celtic tiger public servants were relatively poor paid in comparrison to the average industrial wage and those ambitious enough got out and went and worked in the real world.

                              Those remaining consolidated their power base by surrounding themselves with greater idiots and putting them in positions of authourity at at times letting them do the dirty work.

                              Some of the precedents set in the public sector would never been acceptable to the private sector both from a workers and management point of view.

                              Because of the limited skills base and need for comparitive peace the management often got into bed so to speak with unions with many local agreements that would beggar belief but that gave unions a very big whip to wield in any further issues.

                              Once there was money available, there was no problem, unions stayed out of the way and management could buy their way out of almost anything.

                              Money runs dry problems begin but the unions have had to sell out because the government intervened and the purse strings have been tied with accountants running the setup with managers almost powerless. Now the ability of those in positions of authourity is under the spot light.

                              The Croke park agreement will open cans of worms beyond belief.

                              And whats all that to do with the DF...because it happened there too.

                              The mouse that roared is now going to cause some serious inward looking at the people who were running the show.

                              Did the Lt.Col who was called a prick really believe because he was a LT. Col that he could get away with trying to railroad a guy, put him through a system to get rid of him call it justice.

                              Even if the Cmdt is never reinstated.. guess who else career is dead in the water.

                              And the DF will have to seriously look at what its leaders get up to.

                              Time back again..would I have 100 complaints in the system at any one time...Like ****...I'd have 500 at any one time.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • court martial

                                Just spotted that the hearing of the appeal in relation to the Air Corps officer has been fixed for 22 Nov next at Crinm ct complex which means court will be not be managed by PAs.Also noted the appellant got his rank and proper Christian name restored since an application to court last June.As appeal can include new matters of fact and law not previously raised comments rgarding the content and nature of the alleged issues should be avoided.

                                Comment

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