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  1. #251
    Friend Saab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    They are not trying to settle the CM. The CM has aready given its verdict and punishment, case closed. The Comdt is appealing the verdict and the punishment. The issue for the DoD/MA is do they defend the CM verdict and punishment at the CMAC or do they settle the appeal "on the steps".
    Is that possible?

    When a court makes an order can the two sides choose to ignore that order and make their own arrangements or do they not need to go to another court?

  2. #252
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Civil court usually refers to the place where people sue others, ie, non criminal or family law court.

    Civi court is anything not military.

  3. #253
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saab View Post
    Is that possible?

    When a court makes an order can the two sides choose to ignore that order and make their own arrangements or do they not need to go to another court?
    No - settlements will usually occur before both parties to the disagreement go into the court

    At that point, the legal representatives will then inform the judge that an agreement has been reached
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  4. #254
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saab View Post
    Is that possible?

    When a court makes an order can the two sides choose to ignore that order and make their own arrangements or do they not need to go to another court?
    I would say in a civil case, yes and in a criminal case, no. But this is neither. That's one of the reasons why the stakes are high. For the Comdt there is the loss of career, good name, etc and the legal bills. For the Dod/MA, if the CM got something wrong, then what are the consequences for the CM system, will compensation arise, apology be issued?
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
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  5. #255
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    I would say in a civil case, yes and in a criminal case, no. But this is neither. That's one of the reasons why the stakes are high. For the Comdt there is the loss of career, good name, etc and the legal bills. For the Dod/MA, if the CM got something wrong, then what are the consequences for the CM system, will compensation arise, apology be issued?
    All very valid points...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  6. #256
    .303 MMG Vickers's Avatar
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    MOD: Please do not refer to ongoing cases

  7. #257
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    Can you explain the difference between a civi court and Civil Court? I may not have expressed myself clearly enough but for the sake of the argument I am saying they are the same. It is my understanding that the CMAC is the HC exercising military jurisdiction and the judges are HC judges and are not members of the PDF.
    What Goldie said!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab View Post
    Is that possible?

    When a court makes an order can the two sides choose to ignore that order and make their own arrangements or do they not need to go to another court?
    In a criminal case (which would be similar to military law) only if the DMP dropped the case, not sure if plea bargainning is allowed (eg plead guilty and get a lower sentence) - but a guilty plea may be taken into account

    In a civil case, eg 1 person sueing another they may settle out of court before a judgement is made

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prisoner View Post
    The case is currently listed in the CM Appeal Court. If the punishment is overturned or the HC finds some incorrect procedure was used or strikes down the case in anyway the D of D will have to take out the cheque book. The Comdt lost his carear and good name. What price is put on that by the civi courts? The CMAC is a civi court in that it has civi judges albeit HC judges. That is why they are trying to settle. The alternative is to risk an adverse finding that puts a spanner in the system.
    According to the post on the news thread the conviction is overturned,must be new territory to all concerned.Somebody dropped the ball giving rise to the finding,hard to tell what happened,balls get dropped /thrown all the time.One thing for sure ,the OMDF must be aghast at the outcome given that the officer concerned was doing two redreeses to her everyday he turned in prior to the cm,wonder if the mil admin will get redressed.

  9. #259
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    Gunner jailed for going AWOL among 2013 courts martial penalties

    Assault, theft, and fraud are among the offences that resulted in members of the Defence Forces facing courts-martial last year, while one soldier was jailed for three days for going absent without leave (AWOL).

    Figures from the Defence Forces show eight members of the military faced courts-martial last year and five other members had appeals heard regarding earlier sanctions.

    Last year was the first full year since 2009 in which there was a military judge in situ for the whole 12 months. Michael Campion began hearing cases in September 2012 after a two-year period in which just three cases had been heard by an interim judge.

    The offences last year involved people of various rank, from private to captain and corporal to sergeant.

    All cases were heard at McKee Barracks in Dublin.

    One of the most severe punishments was issued to a gunner who went AWOl for a total of one year, one month, and 29 days. A nolle prosequi was entered for two other charges of going AWOL for shorter periods, and the gunner was sentenced to 38 days detention (all bar three suspended) and a €1,000 fine.

    A captain was fined a total of €3,675 and issued with a severe reprimand after being found guilty of three charges of fraud by a person in charge of property and two other charges of conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline.

    A sergeant was fined €1,000 and issued with a severe reprimand after being found guilty of assaulting a fellow officer. The sergeant was also instructed to pay €50 compensation to the victim.

    One private faced 19 separate charges and was found guilty of five of them, namely improper disposal of property on three occasions, and conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline on two occasions. Five fines of €200 and a severe reprimand were issued to the private.

    A corporal was fined €600 and given a severe reprimand after being found guilty of being under the influence of an intoxicant.

    In other cases, a private was fined €350 for insubordination towards a superior officer and another private was fined €225 for indiscipline, while a captain was fined €600 and severely reprimanded for indiscipline and disobeying the lawful command of a superior officer.

    Of the appeal cases heard last year, a corporal had previous rulings and punishments quashed, while, in another case, the initial fine of €300 for insubordination was increased by €100.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-261404.html

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  11. #260
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    While in how a Military should conduct this business

    http://www.navytimes.com/article/201...rtial-released

    ■ At a special court-martial in Bremerton, Wash., AOAN Ledarius A. Garrett pleaded guilty to willfully disobeying a superior commissioned officer, insubordinate conduct toward a petty officer and breaking restriction, and was additionally tried for assault consummated by a battery and communicating a threat. On Feb. 12, the military judge returned a verdict of guilty on all charges and sentenced him to reduction in rank to paygrade E-1 and confinement for 120 days.


    Vs

    n other cases, a private was fined €350 for insubordination towards a superior officer and another private was fined €225 for indiscipline, while a captain was fined €600 and severely reprimanded for indiscipline and disobeying the lawful command of a superior officer.

  12. #261
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Have a google at Gen Sinclair an American General.

    Up to last week he was facing life in Leavenworth.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sexual-assault.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  13. #262
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Have a google at Gen Sinclair an American General.

    Up to last week he was facing life in Leavenworth.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sexual-assault.
    Don't know how the hell he avoided being drummed out of the service on those charges. Reading between the lines, looks like the perjury issue may have swung the pendulum in his favour
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  14. #263
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Don't know how the hell he avoided being drummed out of the service on those charges. Reading between the lines, looks like the perjury issue may have swung the pendulum in his favour
    There are a number of factors involved- (1) the US have had a string of Senior Officers playing away from home and dipping weapon parts where parts shouldnt be dipped- so they brought in new legislation to deal with this issue, sadly they confuse dipping forceably with playing away - so now its not an issue of legality but more of an issue of morality.

    (2)- Sinclairs bit on the side fell for Sinclair and was then scorned- she made all sorts of accusations against the man including forced sodomy which would have carried a life sentence.

    (3) the chief prosecutor said (not a direct quote) that the birds allegations were pants and the more serious prosecution was only brought because the higher ups wanted a sacrifical lamb to show that the new cleaner more moral system was working.

    (4) The chief prosecutor was replaced and he was reported to be suffering mental problems

    (5) Sinclair offered to plead to adultery, resign at a lower rank and forfeit some of his entitlements.

    (6) the bit on the side did everything Sinclair did (adultery, pictures, took it up the venturi etc) yet she was given immunity.

    (7) She was a highly educted intellegence officer (so it wasnt some bird from the tills in tesco that he pulled and told lies to)
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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  16. #264
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    Latest roundup on the class of '16

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ays-440617.htm

  17. #265
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    That's not opening for me Danno.

    Great thread, some mighty arguments.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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  19. #266
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    That's not opening for me Danno.

    Great thread, some mighty arguments.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ys-440617.html

    Try this
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  21. #267
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    I know we haven't heard the various arguments in the cases but it is a bit strange that one person can be AWOL for over 500 days and be fined 10 days pay while another person is AWOL for 17 days and fined 17 days pay.

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  23. #268
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    This should keep the PA's busy no doubt;

    http://www.thejournal.ie/alleged-ass...37024-Apr2017/

    MOD: no discussion of this topic due to on going investigations of a serious nature
    Last edited by DeV; 13th April 2017 at 08:12.

  24. #269
    bosun
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    This should keep the PA's busy no doubt;

    http://www.thejournal.ie/alleged-ass...37024-Apr2017/

    MOD: no discussion of this topic due to on going investigations of a serious nature
    its been discussed big time on face book ,,, is this site part of dept of defence ..

  25. #270
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden rivet View Post
    its been discussed big time on face book ,,, is this site part of dept of defence ..
    MOD: This isn't Facebook

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  27. #271
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    Sgt cleared of charges in CM last week.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...banon-35618071
    Last edited by danno; 19th April 2017 at 00:32.

  28. #272
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    Golf?
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  29. #273
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    Links to the Indo seem to be corrupted. The gist of the story is that a Sgt Martin Dougan was cleared of an assault charge on a comrade whilst overseas.
    Last edited by danno; 19th April 2017 at 00:35.

  30. #274
    BQMS Liachta Cultaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Links to the Indo seem to be corrupted. The gist of the story is that a Sgt Martin Dougan was cleared of an assault charge on a comrade whilst overseas.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-35618071.html
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

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