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  1. #51
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    Whats a stint like in the Curragh prison Hedgehog? not that i'm assuming you've been on the inside of it, you just seem to be in the know

  2. #52
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Its the hardest prison in Ireland

    spotlessly clean (guess who cleans it)

    loads of drill and PT (by inmates)

    etc etc
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  3. #53
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Its evident you havent a clue what the term lightly means

    he messed around and did something really really stupid

    and now he has to serve 7 days in the hardest prison in Ireland

    and pay a 1,000 Euro fine- thats not lightly.

    Today in the District Court in Dublin a fellow citizen was convicted of breaking the tooth of a female Garda-

    Our fellow Soldier had NO previous convictions- this lad had 23


    Our fellow Soldier pleaded guilty and apoligised

    this lad denied it down to the ground and was found guilty

    we know what our fellow Soldier got- this lad got 6 months suspended sentence

    now tell me who got off lightly.

    the Soldier who did a stupid prank got more column inches int he newspapers than the prick who broke the tooth of a Garda.
    The difference is the soldier signed up to be bound by more laws and a higher standard of discipline, the scumbag didn't. Perhaps the question should be why wasn't the scumbag punished harder?! Thats for another thread!

  4. #54
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    The difference is the soldier signed up to be bound by more laws and a higher standard of discipline, the scumbag didn't. Perhaps the question should be why wasn't the scumbag punished harder?! Thats for another thread!

    You are wrong and somewhat right-

    we (ah the good old days) never signed up for "more laws or the higher standard"

    on Attestation that was never the case- we merely signed up and swore to obey etc etc. There was no seperate for like you suggest.

    and we are however bound not by but to a higher standard than civvies- in that the likes of conduct to the prejudice has no comparable civilian equivalent- same with loads of offences under the DFRs.

    However the Soldier is merely a citizen in Uniform we are protected by the same Constitution that we guard- therefore when we are in front of a Court Martial we have the same Constitutional right to fair procedures and trial in due course of the law as a civilian appearing before a civilian Court.

    In 1963 there was a case called Deaton v AG which established that the act of sentencing was an integral part of the administration of Justice therefore -It was held that therefore sentencing must comply with the Constitutional requirements of Justice - fairness and independence.

    In the State (Healy) v Donoghue (1976) Henchy J held that these Constituional imperatives also included the fact that an accused should receive a sentence appropiate to the degree of guilt and relevant circumstances-

    and thats why we dont keel haul a sailor for texting his girlfreind- nor do we fine a female Soldier ten million euro for absences.

    In 1994 in the case of the People (DPP) v WC- Flood J held that
    the selection of the particular punishment to be imposed on an individual offender is subject to the Constitutional principle of proportionality- the puishment must strike a balance
    Keep the word Proportionality in the back of your head-

    a sentence has to be proportionate- you cant send a man to prison for life for not having a TV licence

    nor should you imprison a man for 3 months ad dismiss him from his job for texting his girlfreind

    or imprison a messer for messing .

    No matter how high a standard WE set ourselves

    all sanctions must be proportionate to the act complained off.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  5. #55
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    Hi all,
    Sentences appear to be getting tougher and the DF seems to be more willing to bring people up on charges than before. In my time, people routinely got "fined a pound, march him out" or "three days CB(invariably a weekend), followed by;"March him to the kitchen and hand him over to the Cook Sergeant (for dixie)". It usually took very serious stuff like stealing fuel or tyres to get an actual court martial. The Digger has one advantage in that the offenders are not mixing with the serious trash in Mountjoy or Portlaoise, thereby reducing the chances of being stabbed, raped or forced to carry drugs for lowlifes. The offenders get very, very acquainted with cleaning materials but so what? They get three meals a day and plenty of exercise.How bad.
    Incidentally, moving a guy to another unit to serve his sentence is also an unofficial punishment called "highway therapy". Whilst spending a lot more time in traffic, the guy gets to consider the error of his ways (as well as further hitting his income by boosting his fuel consumption and car maintenance costs.Neat and unofficial and completely effective.)
    regards
    GttC

  6. #56
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    we (ah the good old days) never signed up for "more laws or the higher standard"

    on Attestation that was never the case- we merely signed up and swore to obey etc etc. There was no seperate for like you suggest.
    More laws is correct..... a soldier in Ireland is bound by the same laws as everyone else + Defence Acts + DFRs.


    No matter how high a standard WE set ourselves

    all sanctions must be proportionate to the act complained off.
    True but he won't do it again ..... and we don't know all the facts

  7. #57
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    is it that the DF is more willing to Courts Martial someone or are CMs just more widely reported lately?

  8. #58
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    DF seems to be more willing to bring people up on charges than before. In my time, people routinely got "fined a pound, march him out" or "three days CB(invariably a weekend), followed by;"March him to the kitchen and hand him over to the Cook Sergeant (for dixie)". It usually took very serious stuff like stealing fuel or tyres to get an actual court martial.
    I think the new Act is giving more rights to the accused but this can bring harsher punishment.... it looks like a lot of things that people would have previously found themselves on orders for are now heading to court marshals?!

    Quote Originally Posted by CS Gass View Post
    is it that the DF is more willing to Courts Martial someone or are CMs just more widely reported lately?
    I think the press are now allowed in and they are advertised on military.ie (openness).

  9. #59
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a gap of a few years where there were no court martials, while they were overhauling the military justice system? Would explain the large number of court martials sitting at the moment. As for the press element, I suppose they might be a bit sick of seeing civvies holding a paper up to their face outside a courthouse, and want to see lads in No1s doing the same.

  10. #60
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    How much does a Court Martial cost?
    Im sure some TD must have ask this in the Dail.

  11. #61
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    A lad acts the bollocks with Recruits and ends up getting moved to a different barracks, ****ed into the kitchen, then comes back to a Court Martial, a 1,000 quid fine and 7 days in the Digger.

    An Lt. while on duty, ****s off on the piss. The Lt. gets a fine and not so much as a night in the cell.


    The mind boggles sometimes.

  12. #62
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
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    Thanks HH and others for the detailed replies. Interesting reading.

    A question for the PDF people, with a bit of service done, do they feel the CM sentences are getting heavier eg bigger fines, longer detention, etc. Are breaches of discipline, that in the past were dealt with by the CO, more likely now to go to CM.

    Also how would an adverse CM finding effect your carear eg promotion, courses.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  13. #63
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Also how would an adverse CM finding effect your carear eg promotion, courses.
    there are rules of procedure aren't there for 667s and 451s that say how long each thing can stay on your jacket ? like penalty points IIRC
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    there are rules of procedure aren't there for 667s and 451s that say how long each thing can stay on your jacket ? like penalty points IIRC
    AFAIK, charges stay on your conduct sheet for 2 years or something like that?

    The 667's only note any charge you have recieved in the past year.

  15. #65
    private REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    AFAIK, charges stay on your conduct sheet for 2 years or something like that?

    The 667's only note any charge you have recieved in the past year.
    A 667A is your yearly conduct report, whereas a 667B is a supplementary conduct sheet which may be used for either positive or negative reports and can be removed from your file after 12 months
    CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

  16. #66
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    The 667 is your Annual Confidential Report, the 667A is the Confidential Report Overseas and the 667B is the Personal File Notation.

  17. #67
    Battalion Sargeant Major Snacker's Avatar
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    Or if you can get into the office and remove and therefore delete your bad record! You may even get promoted if you pulled it off!
    Not that I have heard oof anyone ever do this of course!!
    WARNING: Consumption of alcohol may lead you to believe that ex-lovers are really dying for you to ring them at 4am!!

  18. #68
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Regardless of a soldier recieving a fresh conduct sheet every three years.ALL his/her offences against Military law during their service will remain on their AF43a (personal file) on the MIF system.Downloadable in seconds and usually a requirement to submit a copy on reporting for any career courses.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  19. #69
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    Hi all,
    Just because your sheet might be cleaned, officially, every three years doesn't mean past misdemeanours won't be forgiven or forgotten.People have long memories and past unreliability/difficulty/bloodymindedness/unrulyness will be held against you, unless you are percieved to have cleaned your sheet properly.
    regards
    GttC

  20. #70
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    APOD is right

    If you are charged and the charge is proven

    this information is available forever on the PMS
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  21. #71
    Battalion Sargeant Major Snacker's Avatar
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    I'm talkin back in the days before the PMS!
    WARNING: Consumption of alcohol may lead you to believe that ex-lovers are really dying for you to ring them at 4am!!

  22. #72
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    28 Years meritorious service -

    called his boss a prick

    and fecked out of his job

    the judge said he was thinking of giving him 12 months- WTF is he on

    12 months for calling his boss a prick.

    whats next transportation to van diemens land for absence.


    Officer dismissed over foul language
    RONAN McGREEVY

    A squadron commander in the Air Corps has been dismissed from the Defence Forces for using insulting language to his superior.

    Commandant Niall Donohoe (47), a commissioned officer of 28 years service in the defence forces, called his commanding officer Lieut Col Gerry O’Sullivan a “little prick” at Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel on January 30th last year.

    Military judge Col Tony McCourt said Comdt Donohoe’s offence was “near the serious end” of guilty of one charge of using insulting language to a superior officer contrary to Section 133 of the Defence Act 1954.

    Comdt Donohoe, who is attached to number five Support Wing in the Air Corps, claimed that he said “this is a little prickly” during his appraisal hearing with Lieut Col O’Sullivan.

    Sentencing Comdt Donohoe at a general court martial in McKee Barracks, the judge said the military board, which had acted as a jury in the case, did not believe him and neither did he.

    He told Comdt Donohoe that his behaviour was “entirely unacceptable” and constituted "gross misconduct" from a commissioned officer of his experience.

    Senior officers were expected to uphold the highest standards of discipline and loyalty and to set an example to others, the judge added.

    Col McCourt said he was minded to impose a 12 months prison sentence and a dismissal with disgrace from the defence forces, but took into account mitigating circumstances.

    This included his hitherto perfect disciplinary record, his services overseas which included rescuing a colleague from the line-of-fire in Lebanon, his personal circumstances as a father of two young children, his voluntary work in his local GAA club, his previous good appraisals from other years and the testimony of character witnesses.

    Comdt Donohoe has 21 days to appeal his dismissal to a Court Martials Appeals Board which is presided over by a civilian judge.

    He also faces 11 other charges which will now be the subject of five different trials. The 11 charges have been put in for mention to June 29th
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  23. #73
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Harsh
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

  24. #74
    gunner at heart Archimedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Inman View Post
    From January 1, 2008 to December 31, 2008 he had taken a number of periods of sick leave and was not present for 70 out of 120 days that year.
    Will anyone actually notice that he's gone?
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

  25. #75
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    In the Defence Forces you dont actually take "periods of sick leave"

    a Medical Doctor awards you "periods of sick leave" and only if your actually suffering from something

    but aside from that- the scary thing is extremely harsh and disproportionate sentences are creeping in

    tomorrows newspapers will carry Court reports- see what comparable crimes merited a 12 month

    prison sentence.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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