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  1. #101
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concussion View Post
    Sounds like the RDF to me
    Well maybe the PDF have more in common with the RDF than they think.

  2. #102
    private REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    I heard that some units maintain a "kitty" from which fines can be paid, such is the frequency of individuals being deducted days pay etc for various offences.No shows for duty being the most common.
    I've seen it happen, but as soon as the powers that be discover whats going on, and start throwing around C.B. this stops very suddenly. The new regulations mean punishments awardable escalate as repeat offences crop up and a trip to the digger will eventually be on the cards for those Wasters who feel they should never have to do weekend duties.
    CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

  3. #103
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    where did the "digger" name come from for the Curragh Military Prison?
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  4. #104
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    court martial

    Does anybody have any stats on the output of the CM court,in cases as reported on the Board there has always been a guilty verdict with,at least loss of career.
    In relation to most recent case it was stated he was a serial redresser with 180 complaints filed. Given that in the usual run of things these would involve officers of equal or superior rank he must have redressed virtually every such officer several times over and gone through a fair few others appointed as investigators.
    I read the reports of the Ombudsman (ODF) and I dont recall any mention by her of abuse of redress system on the scale alleged by the prosecution.

  5. #105
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    There was mention of one individual who was responsible for a large percentage of applications to the ombudsman. The Ombudsman does not do redress. She only deals with them once the CoS has them.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamy Window View Post
    where did the "digger" name come from for the Curragh Military Prison?
    Digging a GPMG trench, filling it in, digging another, filling it in and continue until sentence is served?

  7. #107
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Check out 3:30


  8. #108
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    I guess he took the punishment rather than challenge it. I think he shouldn't have to do that shit for five days as it's a waste of a man's utility, especially in a war zone. Better if they sorted out their system of detailing men for duty, espcially the individual responsible for making out the detail in the first place.
    regards
    GttC

  9. #109
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Digging a GPMG trench, filling it in, digging another, filling it in and continue until sentence is served?
    French Drains as they were known in the past, digging two pits one to fill the other endlessly
    Just visiting

  10. #110
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Michael Clifford in todays Sunday Tribune

    puts this Court Martial into perspective-

    I cant find an online copy (sorry)

    but basically he is saying that if this silly matter can take up so much of the time and money

    of the Defence Forces, then maybe we have to many officers within the Defence Forces

    and other juicy bon mots
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  11. #111
    .303 MMG Vickers's Avatar
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    This article HH?

    Michael Clifford - "A few pertinent questions arise about the Irish army's 'prickgate' farce: do these boys take themselves too seriously?"

    Can you handle the truth? Picture this: a large room in a military barracks. A fair shake of stern-looking officers are standing about, all shiny buttons, and the odd medal. The air is thick with the smell of boot polish. Silence permeates the room, ratcheting up the tension. Military policemen are present in case things get out of hand.

    The only people who look to have been plucked from civilian life are two barristers, togged out in wigs and gowns, and a solicitor, who has hung onto his civvie threads. For what is about to unfold is the court martial of a highly regarded officer who flew too close to the sun.

    Enter a procession of officers, comprising the jury. They advance on their appointed seats to the jingle jangle of medals won in the course of service. You wouldn't mess with these boys.

    The judge, a military man himself, reads out the charge against the defendant. What treasonous act has this man perpetrated? Did he sell military secrets to the Russians? Did he drive his men too hard? Was he planning a coup d'état?


    Nile Donohoe: faces the prospect of being the first officer to be ejected from the defense forces

    No. The charge was that "you, Comdt Nile Donohoe did use the following words to your commanding officer: 'you little prick'."

    This is not a scene from 'Carry On Up The Irish Army'. Unfortunately it is a scene from real life, one that went down at McKee barracks in Dublin on 24 May last.

    Nile Donohoe is a 47-year-old squadron commander in the Air Corps. He is a father of two young children and a man who has been commended for the military service he has rendered over 28 years. One character witness who appeared on his behalf told the military court that Donohoe had made savings for the defence forces of at least €1.5m through his research into the installation of something called a modular fuel rig.

    (That one army officer could be responsible for such a huge saving suggests that either he is a Michael O'Leary clone, or the military has no respect for money.) Another witness recalled that Donohoe had once saved a man who was under fire in the Lebanon.

    Now, all that service was up in the air, along with his future, and all because he may have called a superior a little prick in a private conversation. Donohoe denied that he called the officer in question, Lieut Colonel Gerry O'Sullivan, any kind of a prick, big, little or otherwise. He says he used the expression "this is a little prickly", which was misheard by O'Sullivan. On such matters did the august and shiny gathering assemble in McKee barracks, at some expense to the state.

    The alleged insult occurred on 30 January 2009 at Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel, when O'Sullivan was giving Donohoe his appraisal for the previous year. Relations between the two men were not good. Donohoe had, since July 2007, suffered work-related sickness which kept him out of work on a number of occasions. Prior to that he had consistently received good appraisals.

    On this occasion, his superior officer, O'Sullivan, awarded him the lowest possible appraisal, "unsatisfactory".

    At some stage following this, Donohoe either said, "you're a little prick", or "this is a little prickly". There was nobody else present to judge whether an insult was issued or whether it was just a man musing on a situation that was sticky, or even a little prickly.

    The result was a court martial nearly 18 months later. Over the course of a five-day trial, up to a dozen witnesses were called, none of whom had actually witnessed the exchange. In the end, the five-member jury of his fellow officers, found Donohoe guilty of using insulting language to a superior officer. The offence carries a maximum term of two years' imprisonment.

    The military judge, Col Tony McCourt, told Donohoe that the offence warranted 12 months in prison and dismissal with disgrace, but after taking into account mitigating factors, he would just dismiss Donohoe from the force.

    McCourt accused the defendant of taking advantage of the fact that he and O'Sullivan were alone so that nobody else would hear the insult. That was a "grave mistake," the judge said.

    Donohoe now faces the prospect of being the first officer to be ejected from the defence forces. If it wasn't so serious for him, and so expensive for the state, it would make fine comedy.

    A few pertinent questions arise about this farce.

    Notwithstanding the need for discipline etc, in an army, do some of these boys take themselves a tad too seriously? These officers enter as cadets and lead relatively charmed lives in a defence force that, to a large extent, is still divided along class lines.

    When a situation like prickgate arises, is it possible in such a cocooned milieu for a so-called jury of peers to negotiate their way through army politics to find a verdict based solely on facts? In any event, even if the verdict is correct, does the punishment reasonably fit the crime?

    The most pertinent question of all is does the state, at this point in its history, really require over 1,200 commissioned officers in a defence force numbering 9,300 personnel? The forces did commendable peacekeeping work abroad until the last mission ended last month, but perhaps it is time to debate whether that is sufficient reason to maintain its strength, particularly at officer level. The recent carry-on suggests some people might have too much time on their hands.

    Donohoe has indicated he is appealing the conviction and sentence. Good luck to him.

    mclifford@tribune.ie

    June 6, 2010


    http://www.tribune.ie/news/editorial...tions-arise-a/
    Last edited by Vickers; 6th June 2010 at 22:37. Reason: Fix image
    “Fellow-soldiers of the Irish Republican Army, I have just received a communication from Commandant Pearse calling on us to surrender and you will agree with me that this is the hardest task we have been called upon to perform during this eventful week, but we came into this fight for Irish Independence in obedience to the commands of our higher officers and now in obedience to their wishes we must surrender. I know you would, like myself, prefer to be with our comrades who have already fallen in the fight—we, too, should rather die in this glorious struggle than submit to the enemy.” Volunteer Captain Patrick Holahan to 58 of his men at North Brunswick Street, the last group of the Four Courts Garrison to surrender, Sunday 30 April 1916.

  12. #112
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Thats the one- thanks V
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  13. #113
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Seems to be a string of complaints outstanding at O'Sullivans door, this guy si quite a hand full.
    Just visiting

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Michael Clifford in todays Sunday Tribune

    puts this Court Martial into perspective-

    I cant find an online copy (sorry)

    but basically he is saying that if this silly matter can take up so much of the time and money

    of the Defence Forces, then maybe we have to many officers within the Defence Forces

    and other juicy bon mots
    Snide little bit prickly isn't he ! I've noticed an anti-DF bias in his "work " over the last year or so since the er em downturn !

  15. #115
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    There are nine more charges in line for this guy as far as I know. I heard they are big and they want to get rid of him rather than have them put in public.

  16. #116
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrier View Post
    Snide little bit prickly isn't he ! I've noticed an anti-DF bias in his "work " over the last year or so since the er em downturn !
    I think Clifford is a good journalist- 1 week I hate the next I think he is the new Myers

    but this piece really hits the nail on the head-


    As a Military we need discpline- we need to know that orders will be obeyed

    things get done and the respect for rank is there-

    the problem as I see it is proportionality-

    this and the recent sentencing has not been proportionate-

    for this case alone there was a Senior Counsel- a Junior Counsel and a Solicitor

    on the Defence side- this would have cost in the region of 15-20 K.


    Now you look at that from the point of view of a civy- they would no doubt see it

    like Clifford (and me) as a criminal waste of money- in that 1 guy called his boss a prick

    and was caught- and remember this took 18 months to get to trial.

    The Defence Forces by allowing such a piddling trifle get aired in the public arena

    must have been using the same PR advisors as the IDF.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  17. #117
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    I have to say i wholeheartedly agree with HH on this one.I also have to say i agree with Cliffords observations regarding the officer corps numbers and the class system.Sad but true.
    (Before anybody jumps on their High horse i am putting this on record.I AM NOT ANTI-OFFICER)
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  18. #118
    C/S Tango_Charlie's Avatar
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    I never realised there were so many officers in our DF. What would be the average ratio of officers to enlisted men in other armed forces around the world?

  19. #119
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people have a problem with this, an officer is supposed to set the example.

  20. #120
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    Officers

    A consequence/cause / result of the high number of officers here means that some are either boxing over their weight or else overranked for their post.
    Our Navy is headed up by a FOCNS(Brig gen) with some commodores/captains and commanders filling support/op roles. By comparison the coastal patrol section of the RN which includes the River class/minesweepers and uni boats (roughly same overall personel and tonnage is headed up by a commander.The same point probably applies to the Army here.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I also have to say i agree with Cliffords observations regarding the officer corps numbers and the class system.Sad but true.
    (Before anybody jumps on their High horse i am putting this on record.I AM NOT ANTI-OFFICER)
    What class system are you talking about? This is Ireland, not the UK ffs.

    After 18 months in the Cadet School you get to know the family backgrounds of all your classmates very well. Added to that you get to know other officers really well in certain units and overseas. What 'class' are you and that muppet Clifford talking about?

    Ridiculous comment. Even more pathetic than the clowns that posted here about too many officers being the sons or daughters of other officers. Absolutely no facts to support the statement, the facts (commissioning programs with bios) prove the contrary. But then again, Clifford writes opinion pieces, he doesn't deal in facts. My opinion is that he's fond of animals....................no facts to prove it though!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I don't understand why people have a problem with this, an officer is supposed to set the example.
    It's a problem when someone can say "He called me a prick" and with the defendant saying "No I didn't".

    The end result being that, with no actual evidence that the defendant uttered such a phrase, a person can lose their job and be threatened with a 12 month sentence.

    No witnesses at all and case of "It's his word against mine" results in someone losing their job?

    It's just plain ridiculous. How could anyone think that there's nothin wrong with such a judgement and the system responsible for it?

    Everyone accpets the need for discipline but when it gets to the stage where people are getting ****ed on charges where there's no actual evidence is very, very wrong.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango_Charlie View Post
    I never realised there were so many officers in our DF. What would be the average ratio of officers to enlisted men in other armed forces around the world?
    This is the problem with people's trust of the media in Ireland. It's in a paper so it must be true. Clifford has been anti DF for years. Posters here are quick to point out the anti Public Sector agenda of the Indo. Well, guess who has a significant shareholding in The Sunday Tribune............IN&M!

    Clifford is too arrogant to do his own fact checking but he didn't bother to get a minion to do it either. 1200 officers is the establishment. If he'd bothered his lazy ass to do some checking he'd find out that the Lt and Capt ranks are consistently massively under strength. Half of my Cadet Class left before making Comdt for example.

    As for insight, no fear of that either. The standard of journalism in this country is appalling. An INF BN needs a BN HQ and the requisite complement of HQ Officers and HQ Senior NCOs. It's a 'sunk cost' regardless of having one rifle coy or four rifle coys. If each of the Inf Bns had one more rifle company that would be approx 1000 more o/ranks but approx only 60 more officers. Same with the Arty Regts and the Cav Sqns.

    On every occasion that the DF gets targeted for cutbacks the priority has been to try and maintain the operational unit establishment while political interference (internal and external) has protected the Band, the Pony Club, the Cadre etc. Firstly, it provides promotion opportunities for ALL RANKS. Secondly, it provides a framework to quickly build up strength within existing units if required. Sadly, the latter reason may have had a glimmer of hope back in the days of the 'Efficiency Audit Group' but today, it's a pipe dream.

    The good news for Clifford and his acolytes on this forum is that he will get his 'acceptable ratio' after the new White Paper when nine Bns will be merged into six. There'll be less officers and a better ratio but a lot less other ranks too.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    Clifford is too arrogant to do his own fact checking but he didn't bother to get a minion to do it either. 1200 officers is the establishment. If he'd bothered his lazy ass to do some checking he'd find out that the Lt and Capt ranks are consistently massively under strength. Half of my Cadet Class left before making Comdt for example.
    Why is it that Lt. and Capt. ranks are under strength Jessup? Is it just a case of not enough bodies being brought in with each Class or as you allude to, people leaving early?

    I'd imagine there's a bit of a glass ceiling once an Officer hits Comdt? Since vacancies obviously aren't as plentiful as you go up the ranks?

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    Why is it that Lt. and Capt. ranks are under strength Jessup? Is it just a case of not enough bodies being brought in with each Class or as you allude to, people leaving early?

    I'd imagine there's a bit of a glass ceiling once an Officer hits Comdt? Since vacancies obviously aren't as plentiful as you go up the ranks?
    Class sizes are too small, you're right about that. Pre the recession a lot of guys left at Captain to go and do other things, it wasn't always promotion prospects. I know one female officer who was first in her class who left recently, two Captains that left after the ARW etc. Others looked at their chances of promotion and that can be a big influence. It's about 50/50 I'd say.

    Pre the embargo Comdt and north of Comdt is always filled. Establishment = Strength. Isn't it pretty much the same for o/ranks? Lots of Cpl and Sgt vacancies but a CQ/CS/BQ/BSM is never left vacant too long.

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