Thanks Thanks:  9
Likes Likes:  9
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 201 to 225 of 274
  1. #201
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,008
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't understand how he can be paid leave if he was dismissed? Did he get an injunction or something.
    Dismissed but the four 4 stage appeals procedure in the HSE which makes it almost impossible to be actually dismissed so while the appeals procedure was in place he had to be paid.

    The appeals failed and then he brought it court where the dismissal was deemed to be unfair and he is to be reinstated.

    Having heard the ins and outs of the manner in which he was dismissed he had a good case and was wrongfully dismissed.

    But his return to work is going to be very difficult as the allegations laid against him while deemed to be false just don't go away that easily.
    Just visiting

  2. #202
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,008
    Post Thanks / Like
    hits on their web site per week- which thanks to my I Phone calculator makes on average 626,080 hits
    Probably reading the jobs page.. given the unemployment figures its probably yuppies looking for work.

    But then again it could be the sports pages....

    have they a cartoons section or decent problem page?

    Back to the letter..Bit like a 'Jim Brady letter' Brady used to write letters to the Irish Press every week cribbing about the state the navy was in.. then he wrote a book a bout how shite the navy was when he was in it......then the navy bought loads of new gear so he had nothing to crib a about and shut up....and the the Irish Press closed down.
    Just visiting

  3. #203
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    143
    Post Thanks / Like
    Frm my reading of the Indo, isn't there more charges to come..

  4. #204
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Dismissed but the four 4 stage appeals procedure in the HSE which makes it almost impossible to be actually dismissed so while the appeals procedure was in place he had to be paid.

    The appeals failed and then he brought it court where the dismissal was deemed to be unfair and he is to be reinstated.

    Having heard the ins and outs of the manner in which he was dismissed he had a good case and was wrongfully dismissed.

    But his return to work is going to be very difficult as the allegations laid against him while deemed to be false just don't go away that easily.
    Four stages are a bit excessive, for all concerned, much better for all sides not to drag it out too long

    let me guess, somebody made serious allegations, that were baseless, an investigation was commissioned, they gave it to some manager who was clueless, had something else to do, who decided the person must be guilty and therefore didn't bother to interview witnesses or look at evidence, they let it drag on for months, then eventually all the other managers involved decided to sack the person because they were afraid of looking incompetant, and hoped he'd give up?
    Last edited by paul g; 24th June 2010 at 15:52.

  5. #205
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Real Republic
    Posts
    6,182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Its the possibility of reinstatement which then puts the whole disciplinary process under scrutiny and frightens people from using it again less you get it wrong again.

    If thet cmdt was to be reinstated what CO would ever try it again

    Would every man and his dog them take everything to Court Martial given he could appeal any outcome and probably reinstated.

    But the again the muppet that allowed to elevate to the point where he had to go to court martial being the idiot in question
    Looks like your right on this one Murph

    Air Corps officer gets stay on dismissal
    Thursday, 24 June 2010 13:04
    An Air Corps officer who was dismissed from the Defence Forces for using abusive language to his superior officer must keep his job until his appeal is decided, a court has ruled.


    ...........

    Lawyers for the Director of Military Prosecutions had argued there would disciplinary problems with having a senior officer who had been convicted of using abusive language to a superior officer back at work.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0624/donoghuen.html

  6. #206
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,008
    Post Thanks / Like
    l
    et me guess, somebody made serious allegations, that were baseless, an investigation was commissioned, they gave it to some manager who was clueless, had something else to do, who decided the person must be guilty and therefore didn't bother to interview witnesses or look at evidence, they let it drag on for months, then eventually all the other managers involved decided to sack the person because they were afraid of looking incompetant, and hoped he'd give up?
    almost there.. The manager called in an independant enquiry board to interview those who were his supervisors, who then were questioned in matter not relating as they knew nothing about its as it had not happened in the work place ,to the original allegation and instead tried to build a case based on his poor attendance and when dismissed these were the grounds he was didmissed on and not the allegation that had been made, eventhough he had a poor attendance record he was never challenged on it.

    the manager had made the decison to dismiss him on the allegation but when the allegation was found to be false the had still him dismissed albeit with out a case, so they attempt to build a case from nothing to justify the action.

    So it wasn't just the hospital manager, the HR department were involved as well.

    The original allegation was unfounded and the attempt to build a case were called in to question by the judge and duly thrown out.

    To date no one from the side who tried to fit the guy up has faced and disciplinary action and there has been no investigation to date into the events.

    Lost yet?


    Lawyers for the Director of Military Prosecutions had argued there would disciplinary problems with having a senior officer who had been convicted of using abusive language to a superior officer back at work.
    Off course they are concern given how over zealous they we in to have him convicted and dismissed. they never thought that he might now be with a hairs breadth of re instatement and whether he is or isn't they will never be able to prosecute acse successfully again as the whole media speclation around the issue, both the charge punishment and actual offence have made a mockery in the public eye of what was something that could have been dealt with far less publicity.

    the crucifixion of the Navy Bloke on a very suspect charge probably gave the prosecution a false elan in which they believed they were doing this for the greater good and were willing to take on all comers. the never reckon with a guy who wasn't going to play the game to win.

    Now two scenarios.

    He is re instate and left serve out his time and stuck in a office where he doesn't get to call his his superior officers pricks, Stick him witha letter of reprimand and take away his seniority for 3 years.. problem solved.

    I don't doubt he did it and needs some action

    They discharge him..he writes a book, goes on the late late show uncovers the whole thing and no doubt a shit load of other stuff and becomes the next big thing

    If he is a good as the papers make him out to be and he is pissed off enough I reckon heads will roll as this isn't some bimbo love struck corporal having a bitch.This is a senior Commissioned officer with a good track record after being dumped on.

    I know what I'd do
    Last edited by apod; 16th January 2013 at 20:59.
    Just visiting

  7. #207
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    l

    almost there.. The manager called in an independant enquiry board to interview those who were his supervisors, who then were questioned in matter not relating as they knew nothing about its as it had not happened in the work place ,to the original allegation and instead tried to build a case based on his poor attendance and when dismissed these were the grounds he was didmissed on and not the allegation that had been made, eventhough he had a poor attendance record he was never challenged on it.

    the manager had made the decison to dismiss him on the allegation but when the allegation was found to be false the had still him dismissed albeit with out a case, so they attempt to build a case from nothing to justify the action.

    So it wasn't just the hospital manager, the HR department were involved as well.

    The original allegation was unfounded and the attempt to build a case were called in to question by the judge and duly thrown out.

    To date no one from the side who tried to fit the guy up has faced and disciplinary action and there has been no investigation to date into the events.

    Lost yet?


    Murph,

    Not only do i follow it, I've seen something very similar in other public sector organisations, and it wasn't in ireland. there is something about the culture in working for the government institutions, managers seem to think that they'll get away with murder, and often do.

  8. #208
    Number 6 The Prisoner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    529
    Post Thanks / Like
    They get away with it because they are not accountable for the cost, both financial and other costs.
    I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
    Who is number 1?

  9. #209
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,008
    Post Thanks / Like
    It goes back to how they got the job in the first place.

    The public service is like the defence forces that those who hold the reins of power didn't always get there because they were the best at what they did but because the were the only ones who stuck a round when times got tough.

    Before the celtic tiger public servants were relatively poor paid in comparrison to the average industrial wage and those ambitious enough got out and went and worked in the real world.

    Those remaining consolidated their power base by surrounding themselves with greater idiots and putting them in positions of authourity at at times letting them do the dirty work.

    Some of the precedents set in the public sector would never been acceptable to the private sector both from a workers and management point of view.

    Because of the limited skills base and need for comparitive peace the management often got into bed so to speak with unions with many local agreements that would beggar belief but that gave unions a very big whip to wield in any further issues.

    Once there was money available, there was no problem, unions stayed out of the way and management could buy their way out of almost anything.

    Money runs dry problems begin but the unions have had to sell out because the government intervened and the purse strings have been tied with accountants running the setup with managers almost powerless. Now the ability of those in positions of authourity is under the spot light.

    The Croke park agreement will open cans of worms beyond belief.

    And whats all that to do with the DF...because it happened there too.

    The mouse that roared is now going to cause some serious inward looking at the people who were running the show.

    Did the Lt.Col who was called a prick really believe because he was a LT. Col that he could get away with trying to railroad a guy, put him through a system to get rid of him call it justice.

    Even if the Cmdt is never reinstated.. guess who else career is dead in the water.

    And the DF will have to seriously look at what its leaders get up to.

    Time back again..would I have 100 complaints in the system at any one time...Like ****...I'd have 500 at any one time.
    Just visiting

  10. #210
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,013
    Post Thanks / Like

    court martial

    Just spotted that the hearing of the appeal in relation to the Air Corps officer has been fixed for 22 Nov next at Crinm ct complex which means court will be not be managed by PAs.Also noted the appellant got his rank and proper Christian name restored since an application to court last June.As appeal can include new matters of fact and law not previously raised comments rgarding the content and nature of the alleged issues should be avoided.

  11. #211
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    933
    Post Thanks / Like
    while not agreeingwith the ST article. He does raise some valid questions, one officer for ten men, a dept of defence with a bunch of civil servants and a load of army also attached. Lets face it there are two many units , not enough guys in operational units, too many cushy numbers , too many bar rid of tingracks, consolidate get rid of halfthe officesr and units, more bayonets less jam , cheap housing, and free eduction stealers

  12. #212
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    97
    Post Thanks / Like
    I see the court martial of the air corps commandent is back in the papers today.

    Irish Independent - Court martial appeal

  13. #213
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    For sure, you have to consider PR but you can't allow it to dictate good order and discipline. EG If this investigation about DF Officers purchasing arms in South Africa for groups in the Seychelles (as fanciful as it sounds) is true then should the officers get a free pass to avoid the bad PR and letters from the Joe Duffy appreciation society to the editor? It would cause far more PR damage than "Prick Gate" so what does the DF do then?
    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...68&postcount=3

    No evidence

  14. #214
    bosun
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    cork
    Posts
    1,641
    Post Thanks / Like
    joe higgins and martin ferriss.. now they must hold a grudge...marita ann perhaps....

  15. #215
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,013
    Post Thanks / Like
    The court martial wrt the IAC officer is listed for the Four Courts on the 13th this month.

  16. #216
    private REX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Cloud Cuckoo Land
    Posts
    935
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    The court martial wrt the IAC officer is listed for the Four Courts on the 13th this month.
    Court Martials are not held in civilian courtrooms, I think you'll find that it's his appeal against the findings of the CM that he has appealed in civilian court
    CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

  17. #217
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Court Martials Appeals Court is the High Court

  18. #218
    private REX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Cloud Cuckoo Land
    Posts
    935
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The Court Martials Appeals Court is the High Court
    It is not part of the court martial process, it is where you go when you have exhausted the military proceedures
    CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

  19. #219
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    It is the High Court but it sits as the Court Martials Appeals Court, it is a military court as such but with civilian judges.

  20. #220
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like
    As an apprentice at the Army Apprentice School in Naas in the late 70's the usual form of disciplne for minor offences was a spell in Dixieland or moving turf in the turf shed from A to B and back to A again.

  21. #221
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3
    Post Thanks / Like
    Strange as it may seem gentlemen, our "Military Law" is far from law, you have recourse to the full judicial system and may hire a lawyer or barrister if you wish, all of our military law is based on the Original British law and needs to be updated by someone other than a military law "Expert". A lot of the charges that were in vogue in 1950 would not stand up to Media scrutiny, let alone Judicial review.

  22. #222
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    14,478
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bankroller View Post
    Strange as it may seem gentlemen, our "Military Law" is far from law, you have recourse to the full judicial system and may hire a lawyer or barrister if you wish, all of our military law is based on the Original British law and needs to be updated by someone other than a military law "Expert". A lot of the charges that were in vogue in 1950 would not stand up to Media scrutiny, let alone Judicial review.
    our Military Law is a parallel system to the normal law of the land- pertinent cases like Scariff v Taylor sets that out- however Military Law is still subject to the Constitution and to the various EU laws. Cromwell himself said that the Soldier is just a civilian in uniform. If you think about it I am sure your school/college/workplace has its own policies concerning matters such as sick leave etc - that is just like Military law and that is supervise -able by the Courts.

    Irish Military law was originally based on British Military law but the 2008 onwards stuff is based on Australian/Canadian Military law as well- it is far from perfect.

    The new statutory provisions were drafted by one of the big firms of Solicitors in consultation with the Department and an august body called the Court martial rules committee.

    Whilst Irish Military Law is not perfect the media can scrutiny it all they want but apart from getting betty from Gormanston the page 3 bird to flash her truppenies in protest, the Media have no power to amend military law.

    If you go onto courts.ie and then search the cases data base, you will find that Irish Military law has been challenged in part a great deal of times and has yet to be overturned.

    And it should be pointed out that a Soldier accused of a crime/offence has only recourse to legal counsel when remanded for Court martial- you cannot have representation (except assisting person) at the preliminary investigation (orders) or at the taking of a summary of evidence, even though you have the right to cross examine witnessess against and for you and those answers will go to form the prosecution case against you.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  23. #223
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,013
    Post Thanks / Like
    HH, what was updated in 2007 is the procedure for the trial of persons before a court martial,some referrals to the ECJ from other jurisdictions necessitated this.However the military offences ,subject to some minor adjustments ,remained the same.
    At the same time the 2007 Garda discipline regs were enacted and the offences were updated along with the procedures.The same could easily have been done for the DF.For example ,abuse of any Garda by a Garda is an offence,in DF only an offence if victim is a superior officer !.

  24. #224
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Here And There...
    Posts
    10,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    HH, what was updated in 2007 is the procedure for the trial of persons before a court martial,some referrals to the ECJ from other jurisdictions necessitated this.However the military offences ,subject to some minor adjustments ,remained the same.
    At the same time the 2007 Garda discipline regs were enacted and the offences were updated along with the procedures.The same could easily have been done for the DF.For example ,abuse of any Garda by a Garda is an offence, in DF only an offence if victim is a superior officer !.
    Danno, what about Defence Act 1954 Section 140 ?

    Section 140
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/...40.html#sec140

    Section 143:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/...43.html#sec143

    Defence Act does not just protect those of superior rank, if I am interpreting correctly
    what you said above (highlighted)
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  25. #225
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,013
    Post Thanks / Like
    Trucker,I was referring to section 133,in any event there are already offences in existance in the criminal code dealing with assauly/theft etc.Sec 133 makes it an offence to be abuse etc somebody of superior rank and seems to exist to protect the institution wheras in the garda regs it appears to protect the individual concerned.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •