New Rifle or Upgrade

[ropebag]

There is nothing wrong with 5.56mm as such...

there fcuking is! it doesn't go far enough, it doesn't have the penetration power to go through cars and other 'light' cover, and it doesn't do enough damage even if you manage to hit the enemy. 7.62mm does. 6.8mm may do.

of course the UK will have to follow the NATO descision, i'm fully aware of that - however no one in NATO is pushing for a lighter than 5.56 solution, some are pushing for 5.56 (mainly on a cost basis), others are pushing for 6.8 on the basis that its 'the new messiah', but most are saying '7.62 has really done the business, thank fcuk we kept the GPMG and we able to use it as the basis for moving to L129/HK416/whatever'.

[paul g]

there fcuking is! it doesn't go far enough, it doesn't have the penetration power to go through cars and other 'light' cover, and it doesn't do enough damage even if you manage to hit the enemy. 7.62mm does. 6.8mm may do.

of course the UK will have to follow the NATO descision, i'm fully aware of that - however no one in NATO is pushing for a lighter than 5.56 solution, some are pushing for 5.56 (mainly on a cost basis), others are pushing for 6.8 on the basis that its 'the new messiah', but most are saying '7.62 has really done the business, thank fcuk we kept the GPMG and we able to use it as the basis for moving to L129/HK416/whatever'.

Actually 5.56mm is fine for ranges up to 300 metres. And most infantry combat still takes place within that range.

The simple truth is that its pretty difficult for the average infantryman to hit somebody at over 300 metres, not matter what calibre and sights you useyou use, 7.62mm included.


A lot of this debate comes from the fact that the Taliban fire at ISAF troops at long ranges over 500 metres or so. But they do that because they know if they get in close they'll get badly beaten. Fire from an AK, espeically fire from someone who hasn't had any training in how to use it, at those ranges, is ineffective. They open fire at these long ranges not to hit ISAF troops, although its a bonus if they do, but to demonstrate to the locals that they are in the game, and the break contact before NATO firepower can come to bear.

The problem is with the round NATO adopted, SS-109, there are far better rounds out there in 5.56mm, and if one of those is adopted, and in these recessionary times its most likely that;s what they'll do, then you'll hear the last of a change from 5.56mm for rifles.

[paul]

there are far better rounds out there in 5.56mm

Like what the americans have got going at the moment and what the BA, to the best of my knowledge has still in testing, the BA one is supposedly getting a 50% increase in blah blah blah, I can't be expected to remember everything I hear and read.

U.S. Army M855A1

USMC MK 318 'SOST'

[paul g]

worth pointing out you obviously mean the SA80 A1 was - but the A2 is a decent bit of kit and well respected and proven in combat.

Nope, I still think its a pile of poo

[Malaga2]

no point - a) nobody knows yet what calibre to rebore it to, or if indeed it needs doing, and b) its likely that the cost of reboring every single rifle would be not far off the cost of buying new rifles built from scratch for that calibre.

NATO isn't going to make any decisions until after Afghanistan - probably 2018 or so. 6.8mm may be in the running, but 7.62 is a very strong contender given that 1) its tried and tested, unlike 6.8mm, and 2) 7.62mm weapons are vastly lighter than they were in the 1980's.

from the informed conversations i've heard about, the BA is about as likely, after the fun and games with 5.56, to go for an untried calibre as it is to go back to 1940's Battledress.

7.62.... !!!!!!

Argument for 5.56 is that the trooper could carry more ammo...doesn't mean much when foe has to be hit multiple times to end the fight....

And already in the supply chain....

[kaiser]

Really ? And what happened the FN in DF service AFTER that point ? It came into FCA service
and soldiered on until approx 2001....

the fn is back with the pdf now in sniper support.. it has a few upgrades to it , and looks damn fine too

[hptmurphy]

Something being overlooked big time...you can't put a full charge 7.62mm down a weapon designed to take a 5.56mm round.

You have to return to the days of something similar in dimension to the FN,Problem being we now have more people in various armies that have problems with the dimensions and power of such a weapon...ie the female element!

So if you're going to go for 7.62mm...new weapons required.

6.8mm not know the ballistics of it, I can't offer an opinion, but to achieve and improvement in performance some changes to existing weapons would be required. Steyr wouldn't require a rebore...just buy the required parts off the shelf, some tinkering with the gas pressures would allow the round to be used.

Again not qualified to offer an opinion on the SA 80 but something similar might be possible.

Financially this would be the better option, who could afford to re equip its entire armed forces with a new weapons system these days?

[BANDIT]

Or Dont have women in front line combat units so they are not issued with the 7.62 .
But tehn again athtw ill bring up the whole PC sh-- . War is not PC and armies should not be either..

[danno]

Maybe somebody will come up with a Sako quad4 or CZ 422 type of solution suitable for autos.

[ropebag]

Or Dont have women in front line combat units so they are not issued with the 7.62 .
But tehn again athtw ill bring up the whole PC sh-- . War is not PC and armies should not be either..

theres no such thing as a 'non' front line unit anymore. of course, we've only been fighting high intensity COIN wars for the last decade, so what would we know?

women can quite comfortably use the L129 - a 7.62mm weapon - in Helmand Province. obviously this isn't the same as doing CIT's in Limerick, and i'm sure when its put to this ultimate test of warfare we'll find out the real truth about the matter, but for the moment we'll say that women can use 7.62 personal weapons...

[northie]

I think people talking about reboring may be getting confused with a investigations into the use of fluted barrels -the Aussies have gone this way with their Ef-88, as have hk with their lightened gpmg. As other posters have started earlier, the calibre that NATO decided on will have a large bearing on what happens....and no decisions have been made yet.

[kaiser]

i dont think i,ve been confused, i know what i posted and said its been investigated.. a rebore is not a massive job.
they have to look at all options and of course the calibre that nato picks will have a massive bearing on the subject.
the defence forces are also looking at one or two other rifles aswell

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Nope, I still think its a pile of poo

think what you like - you're a civvie who has never even fired it let alone used it on operations.

even our standard A2 has better optics and reliability than a standard Steyr - but when deployed on operations the A2 pisses all over the current [DFI] Steyr.

it's never been an easy weapon to clean and yes it's heavier but it's certainly world class and extremely proven in combat - more so than the Steyr.

but this is not about the differences between the 2 weapons and the DFI will obviously never buy the A2, so lets move on.

[The real Jack]

think what you like - you're a civvie who has never even fired it

Think what you like but - you do a civvie job in uniform. I doubt there's a lot of firefights in computer rooms.

let alone used it on operations.

You've never fired a steyr let alone used it on operations. So how have you formed this opinion?

even our standard A2 has better optics and reliability than a standard Steyr - but when deployed on operations the A2 pisses all over the current [DFI] Steyr.

it's never been an easy weapon to clean and yes it's heavier but it's certainly world class and extremely proven in combat - more so than the Steyr.

but this is not about the differences between the 2 weapons and the DFI will obviously never buy the A2, so lets move on.

How exactly does a rifle piss all over another rifle? If they DFs steyrs were upgraded to the same extent as the L85 they would be just as capable.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Think what you like but - you do a civvie job in uniform. I doubt there's a lot of firefights in computer rooms.


You've never fired a steyr let alone used it on operations. So how have you formed this opinion?



How exactly does a rifle piss all over another rifle? If they DFs steyrs were upgraded to the same extent as the L85 they would be just as capable.

if - but they are not.