EPV for naval service

[paul g]

The Guardian design is the favourite for the south african OPV Project Biro programme, and both are around 80 metres so they're more sutiable for the OPV. However, while no requirement for helicopters, the OPV is specified to be able to operate curent and future UAVs, so there should be some sort of area on the back to facilitate that.

Big C, actually I think that the FSC the brits are looking at might be the sort of thing that the Naval service eventually buy, and given the need for the need to carry ISO containers/TEU's in the tender, don't necessarily rule out MCM capabilities.

i think they got lots of proposals back for the EPV, and are currently assessing what they want the ship to be. A lot of the speculation here has been on a transport vessel ala New Zealand, but i think that perhaps it will be more of a patrol vessel, something with the abilty to take part in UN blockade missions, and anti-piracy patrols.

[Goldie fish]

Yeah, my understanding is they intend the EPV to be a Patrol vessel first, with redundant capability for blue/green operations, rather than a Blue/green ship that can do patrols when not being used for army stuff.
However I'd say priority is to secure the OPVs first.

[paul g]

Yeah, my understanding is they intend the EPV to be a Patrol vessel first, with redundant capability for blue/green operations, rather than a Blue/green ship that can do patrols when not being used for army stuff.
However I'd say priority is to secure the OPVs first.

True, still there is 5 million in the estimates for new ships, a down payment.

They've really got no choice in the matter, the P-21 class is old and wearing out, and if anything they've left it a bit too long to secure these new ships.

Again the European pressure is mounting on them, every other state is facing economic difficulties, in that situation, they have no choice but to renew the navy.

Politically i think they'll opt for a european design, and a modified version of the Meko Guardian might fit the bill.

[Goldie fish]

I'd say no matter what designs are out there, you could link them back to a european company in some way.
In related news, there was questions asked in the Dail last week about our plans to extend the territorial limits to the continental shelf.

3. Deputy Lucinda Creighton asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he will lodge a claim with the United Nations for an extension in the State’s share of the continental shelf; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15996/09]

Deputy Micheál Martin: Ireland claims continental shelf extending beyond the standard 200 mile entitlement to both the west and south of the country. Under international law these claims must be examined by the UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. For the purposes of our claims, we have divided the extended shelf into three sectors.

The first sector is to the south west of the country near the Porcupine Abyssal Plain, an area which is approximately half the size of the State’s land territory and which was the subject of Ireland’s first submission to the Commission. The Commission issued recommendations in 2007. These confirmed Ireland’s entitlement in this sector and set out details of where the new outer limit there should be established. The area involved is approximately 39,000 sq km, which is a very satisfactory outcome. The Government made an order under the Continental Shelf Act 1968 on 31 March last which formally establishes the area concerned as Irish continental shelf.

The second claim is in the Celtic Sea, where there are unresolved boundary issues with the UK, France and Spain. The four countries made a joint submission for this 80,000 sq km area in 2006. The Commission last month confirmed this claim and negotiations on its division between the four will begin in due course.

Ireland also claims part of the Hatton-Rockall area of the north-east Atlantic, which extends up to 500 nautical miles from the coast. There is an agreed Ireland-UK boundary here, but it is not accepted by Iceland or the Færoe Islands, which make their own claims. The four have met regularly since 2001 in an effort to resolve the overlapping claims issue, but to date have been unable to reach agreement. In view of the ten year deadline for the making of submissions to the Commission, which for Ireland expires in May, Ireland lodged its own claim for this area last month. It is not possible at this stage to say when the Commission will examine it, but the four countries concerned intend to keep the matter under regular review.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: The Rockall dispute in particular is of significant importance for the country because potential lucrative and valuable oil and gas reserves may well be available for exploration in the future. What is being done at Government level to fight for and make the case for Ireland at UN level in this regard? It is reasonably widely accepted that the Irish case is stronger than that of Iceland or Denmark. It is, therefore, essential that we put forward a strong challenge. The talks, which had been ongoing since 2001, have now broken down. This presents an opportunity to have the situation resolved once and for all within the United Nations. Will the Minister inform the House what he and the Government have been doing to ensure we see a successful outcome for Ireland?


Deputy Micheál Martin: I just did that in my reply and outlined the three areas in which the Department has been involved. With regard to the Porcupine Abyssal Plain, we have now achieved a successful outcome as a result of our submission to the Commission. The second claim relates to the Rockall area of the north-east Atlantic. We are not talking about Rockall itself, as the rock is of no relevance to this at all. Our concern is the area around it.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am aware of that.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We have now made our submission to the Commission on that. There is a timeframe involved. We had been hoping to reach agreement, but that was impossible. The ten year timeframe for making a submission would have been up in May, so we have made our submission now.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: The Department got its submission in at the 11th hour.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We endeavoured to get agreement first. We have an agreed Ireland-UK boundary, but the Færoe Islands and Iceland have not accepted that. There have been regular meetings in the intervening period between the four countries to try to resolve the issue, but that has not been possible. It is now a matter for the Commission. We are pursuing the issue and trying to get the correct outcome from Ireland’s perspective.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: What is the timeframe for that? How long does the Minister anticipate it will take?


Deputy Michael D. Higgins: The issue is around 25 years, since the time of Charles Haughey.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We cannot give a timeframe with regard to when the Commission will examine the issue. We have a good record with regard to the manner in which we have pursued the issues and the successes we have had over the years.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: This is the key issue of the three.


Deputy Micheál Martin: They are all important. All sorts of claims can be made about economic potential, but that all remains to be determined. All of the issues are important. There is a process to be followed and if a mutually satisfactory agreement cannot be reached the best way to pursue the issue is through the UN Commission. That is the route we have taken.

Clear as mud, but it does strengthen the case for larger vessels, with longer endurance, capable of operating in rougher seas.

[paul g]

Actually quite a few people are unaware of the potential for this to become a serious problem, for example there has been a war of words between Canada and Denemark over who owns Hans island.

[DeV]

True, still there is 5 million in the estimates for new ships, a down payment.

That would be the down payment on 1 vessel!

Roisin & Niamh each cost around € 22 million

[paul g]

Looks like its a modified rosin and a.n.other German shipbuilder for the OPV competition

http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/northam/Appledore-Shipyard-shortlist-build-Irish-patrol-vesselsarticle-650830-details/article.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/transportation-equipment-mfg-ship/11418234-1.html

http://www.geoffreycox.co.uk/search/article.php?id=600

If its not Thyssen, then perhaps it will be the Fassmer OPV, which Argentina and columbia have also ordered

http://www.armada.cl/p4_rumbo_manana/site/artic/20051104/pags/20051104100044.html

This is what happens when mrs G and the kids go to Italy to visit her parents

[Goldie fish]

That would be the down payment on 1 vessel!

How do you know?

Roisin & Niamh each cost around € 22 million

£

[thebig C]

Looks like its a modified rosin and a.n.other German shipbuilder for the OPV competition

http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/northam/Appledore-Shipyard-shortlist-build-Irish-patrol-vesselsarticle-650830-details/article.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/transportation-equipment-mfg-ship/11418234-1.html

http://www.geoffreycox.co.uk/search/article.php?id=600

If its not Thyssen, then perhaps it will be the Fassmer OPV, which Argentina and columbia have also ordered

http://www.armada.cl/p4_rumbo_manana/site/artic/20051104/pags/20051104100044.html

This is what happens when mrs G and the kids go to Italy to visit her parents

Not sure I am mad on either of those designs! I would have pefered something like an A-100/Sigma OPV.

Do you think we will eventually hear the names of everybody who submitted tenders?

Also, I would hav thought that inthese straightened financal circumstances the Govt might look further afield to get better value. Germany and the UK are not exactly low cost labour economies!

C

[thebig C]

The Guardian design is the favourite for the south african OPV Project Biro programme, and both are around 80 metres so they're more sutiable for the OPV. However, while no requirement for helicopters, the OPV is specified to be able to operate curent and future UAVs, so there should be some sort of area on the back to facilitate that.

Big C, actually I think that the FSC the brits are looking at might be the sort of thing that the Naval service eventually buy, and given the need for the need to carry ISO containers/TEU's in the tender, don't necessarily rule out MCM capabilities.

i think they got lots of proposals back for the EPV, and are currently assessing what they want the ship to be. A lot of the speculation here has been on a transport vessel ala New Zealand, but i think that perhaps it will be more of a patrol vessel, something with the abilty to take part in UN blockade missions, and anti-piracy patrols.

Yes we should pay close attention to the FSC programme. Even the C1 and C2 categories.Here is another proposal from our old friends DML :

DML Frigate Concept (FC65)
At DSEi 2005 in September, DML Group unveiled a new frigate design concept known as FC65. The FC65 is a high speed, long range, surface combatant, intended to offer good capability in both offensive and defensive roles. Approaching 150 metres in length and with a displacement of 6,600 tonnes loaded, the vessel is powered by twin MT30 gas turbines, with four large waterjets that allow it to reach its speed capability of 35 knots (65 km/h) while being sufficiently efficient to provide over 7,000 nautical miles (13,000 km) endurance. Two Merlin helicopters can be hangared, and the flight deck can accommodate large rotorcraft.

The FC65 features a versatile vertical launch system for both offensive and defensive stores, and has a Mk45 5-inch gun to provide shore bombardment support. Special Forces are catered for in the flexible internal cargo deck aft. This can be re-configured for military or non-military tasks. At 40 metres long and 12 metres wide, the space is large enough to allow transportation of a wide range of vehicles, stores, boats, personnel or other cargo.

The design deliberately focuses on rapid adaptability, and can be rapidly reconfigured for military and non-military roles and duties ranging from benign and constabulary to Task Group command and Land Attack/ASW functions. The platform has been optimised to allow sustained global operations with high endurance, and has the ability both to undertake a wide range of tasks unsupported, and to command task group operations.

Obviously, its waaaay over armed for us....we can but dream However, features such as utilising the area underneath the Heli deck could be the way to go for the NS requirement.

Sorry, having trouble posting pics!

C

[DeV]

Sorry Goldie €27.84 million, thats each. Going by the Special Report on the AC & NS they will be paid for over 3 years (€5 million would be the first downpayment on 1 vessel).

Hopefully I'm wrong!

[paul g]

Roisin and Niamh were ordered two years apart, where as these two will be ordered together. They'll work out a funding deal over six to nine years on these vessels, especially if they exercise the option for the third.

[DeV]

Do you think DOD has that cop on?

It depends on when they are going to be delivered, start work on one now and one in a years time, they may be able to pay for both over 4/5 years at a push!

If you ran a business would you spend approx 3 years working on a contract, deliver the goods to the customer and then wait for the payment for another 3 years??

How would they purchase materials & pay staff? Don't say bank loans!

[Goldie fish]

Dev, you know NOTHING about the shipping industry. That is exactly how ships are built. In fact more banks are getting involved in financing shipbuilding, as the returns are quite high. The Shipyard carries the cost until the vessel is handed over to the new owner.

When you buy a new car, do you hand over your money, and wait for the Makers to build your car for you?

[Tadpole]

It a bit worrying that the Appledore article only mentions bidding for 2 vessels. Either they didnt bid for the EPV or they have already been told to forget about it.