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  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post


    While the ship may not be top of my list, its capabilities are still something we could make great use of.
    As a sealift vessel with basic amphibious support capabilities it is perfectly fine for a LTG (Light Taskforce Group) of around 250 personnel plus air detachment and core crew of 55. Proven its worth in the HADR role numerous times.

    What was not fine in the RNZN context was that it was also sold as a "patrol vessel" to replace its frigate predecessor and got lumbered with a 1C icebelt for Southern Ocean work. That clearly did not work. A new ice capable southern ocean capable patrol vessel to make up for that deficit has finally been green lighted with a $320m budget for an early 2023 commissioning date.

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    • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
      Or we could just dry lease a car ferry.....
      Imagine the conversion required to remove the bar/gaming machines...
      Taking your proposal seriously for a moment, current ferries in service have had to add huge ugly scrubbers to the funnels to reduce NOx emissions. The standard loading /unloading ramps arealso unsuitable for all but the loading docks at their normal route ports.
      The IoM truck ferry was a good startpoint, but as Anzac says, it was sold as something more than it was. We also need a vessel that is Patrol first, ass and trash second. A vessel similar to Canterbury could not fulfil this role.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • If the government is seriously considering such a vessel, it would be nice if they took the rare opportunity/excuse while in that corner of the world, to allow the peeps involved to inspect other very similar examples in the region, such as the Singaporean and Vietnamese examples mentioned above, and any Australian example, while the Canterbury ship visit is fresh in their minds. Is it too late to change flight connections?!

        Also, could such a vessel be used on fishery patrols more as a 'mother ship' to other craft to patrol from, kinda like Somali pirates/fishermen?!
        The NS could embark some of their spare Fast Attack Craft boats in the welldock of the new vessel and some of the spare DF medium lift helicopters on deck. Easy. If only.

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        • "spare Fast Attack Craft boats" (". Not sure if sarcasm or.... ?
          "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
          "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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          • Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
            We also need a vessel that is Patrol first, ass and trash second. A vessel similar to Canterbury could not fulfil this role.
            In other words an Absalon / CrossOver derivative that is less expensive but also European? This is something to start with and modify according to specific needs.



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            • Naval Comparitors

              Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
              If the government is seriously considering such a vessel, it would be nice if they took the rare opportunity/excuse while in that corner of the world, to allow the peeps involved to inspect other very similar examples in the region, such as the Singaporean and Vietnamese examples mentioned above, and any Australian example, while the Canterbury ship visit is fresh in their minds. Is it too late to change flight connections?!

              Also, could such a vessel be used on fishery patrols more as a 'mother ship' to other craft to patrol from, kinda like Somali pirates/fishermen?!
              The NS could embark some of their spare Fast Attack Craft boats in the welldock of the new vessel and some of the spare DF medium lift helicopters on deck. Easy. If only.
              The recommended procedure for smaller Navies, interested in building up strength judiciously, is to look at other similar Navies in your own main Area of Operations i.e. North Atlantic West facing in most weather conditions. In our case Countries with Atlantic interests are Norway, Denmark, and Britain. In our case we MUST always maximise sea keeping qualities and stay within the norms of Length, Beam and Draft with good Range and Endurance. Habitability and adaptability for humanitarian interventions together with useful uplift for military operations. Short Fat RO-RO's are giddy.

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              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                The recommended procedure for smaller Navies, interested in building up strength judiciously, is to look at other similar Navies in your own main Area of Operations i.e. North Atlantic West facing in most weather conditions. In our case Countries with Atlantic interests are Norway, Denmark, and Britain. In our case we MUST always maximise sea keeping qualities and stay within the norms of Length, Beam and Draft with good Range and Endurance. Habitability and adaptability for humanitarian interventions together with useful uplift for military operations. Short Fat RO-RO's are giddy.
                All of whom are NATO countries.

                The intent with the MRV is to deploy a joint task force similar to the one New Zealand deploys as part of the effort to develop a similar capability for EU csdp missions. all the elements of the white paper point to it, from the new maratime aircraft and istar aircraft to the high readiness infantry company that is being developed, to the sitaware software.

                Essentially the present mission in the Lebanon was a step backwards from Chad and was only undertaken because of the financial crisis, future missions will be more expeditionary like Liberia and Chad where Rotterdam and medium helicopters were key enablers.

                In the longer term the NS will probably be expanded with longer ranged and more capable EPV along with the bluffwaffe at the expense of the army (which increasingly is going to be concentrated in three or four barracks) hence why they are briefing against mellett in rags like the Phoenix.
                Last edited by paul g; 23 October 2017, 11:49.

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                • Don't see why membership of NATO is a reason not to consider the navies of Denmark and Norway as models. After all, we are increasingly trying to match NATO standards and these are two countries that we have a chance to catch up with and match economically. The UK...surely we aren't in their league or looking for the same capabilities as them at all?
                  We do have a lot in common with New Zealand. Actually, we seem to have a bigger budget than they do by about 5 billion last year. But they run a slight surplus :(
                  Their defence expenditure is quite tasty by that measure. But of course they have deep mutual defence arrangements with Australia, as well as with the US and UK. Not to mention the connections between their intelligence services and the rest of the Five Eyes.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                    All of whom are NATO countries.

                    The intent with the MRV is to deploy a joint task force similar to the one New Zealand deploys as part of the effort to develop a similar capability for EU csdp missions. all the elements of the white paper point to it, from the new maratime aircraft and istar aircraft to the high readiness infantry company that is being developed, to the sitaware software.

                    Essentially the present mission in the Lebanon was a step backwards from Chad and was only undertaken because of the financial crisis, future missions will be more expeditionary like Liberia and Chad where Rotterdam and medium helicopters were key enablers.

                    In the longer term the NS will probably be expanded with longer ranged and more capable EPV along with the bluffwaffe at the expense of the army (which increasingly is going to be concentrated in three or four barracks) hence why they are briefing against mellett in rags like the Phoenix.
                    The Chad missions occurred after the financial crises actually

                    The mission was pulled because the host nation withdrew its support for the UN mission that EUFOR handed over to

                    Since 1958, the Defence Forces have a continuous presence on peace support operations, mainly in the Middle East. However, in recent years, following the end of the cold war, Defence Forces personnel have also found themselves in many other parts of the globe as peace-keepers.

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                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      The Chad missions occurred after the financial crises actually

                      The mission was pulled because the host nation withdrew its support for the UN mission that EUFOR handed over to

                      http://www.military.ie/overseas/past...rica/minurcat/

                      Actually Chad was planned in 2007 well before the crisis, and was launched in February 2008. The bank guarantee only happened in September that year.

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                      • S
                        Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                        Don't see why membership of NATO is a reason not to consider the navies of Denmark and Norway as models. After all, we are increasingly trying to match NATO standards and these are two countries that we have a chance to catch up with and match economically. The UK...surely we aren't in their league or looking for the same capabilities as them at all?
                        We do have a lot in common with New Zealand. Actually, we seem to have a bigger budget than they do by about 5 billion last year. But they run a slight surplus :(
                        Their defence expenditure is quite tasty by that measure. But of course they have deep mutual defence arrangements with Australia, as well as with the US and UK. Not to mention the connections between their intelligence services and the rest of the Five Eyes.
                        Norway has a massive coastline and border with the Russians, lots of shelterd fjords, hence why they have a big submarine fleet and fast attack craft. the Danes have have extensive interests in theBaltic, and fir their ocean going fleet have extensive artic interests, neither navy are comparators to the Ns. The ns has actually looked to the uscg as a model in the past.

                        The light task force that New Zealand has is a real model for the DF to aim for. Operations by company level units are now becoming more common as technology means that a company can achieve as much if more than a battalion of 25 years ago and the usmc have a lot of literature about how an infantry company with suitable enablers is the expeditionary unit of the future. The ability to deploy a light infantry company by sea into a littoral area with support from air and sea assets in pso missions would be a massive jump forward for the DF.
                        Last edited by paul g; 23 October 2017, 16:52.

                        Comment


                        • The IoM truck ferry was a good startpoint, but as Anzac says, it was sold as something more than it was. We also need a vessel that is Patrol first, ass and trash second. A vessel similar to Canterbury could not fulfil this role.
                          My point exactly a multirole ships is not as 'multi role ' as we would like it to be and to tie up a building cost of €200 million in what is really a single role ship is wasteful for a navy that needs more hulls to carry out existing missions without even considering new ones.

                          Remove all the current pay and conditions issues and go back to the actual issue which is the procurement of ships and focus on the actual missions carried out since 2009. Even with the limited resources we have, tying a single hull up to provide support for an army that doesn't do the type of work the RNZN does is wasteful.

                          New Zealands area of operations in the South Pacific in a region that is made up of islands is justifiable, even the make up of the country would justify it. Their nearest neighbour is also their greatest naval partner and can support such missions.

                          On the other hand we are an island nation three hours steaming from our nearest neighbour with who we are not aligned ( NATO), Our Defence Forces have deployed on two missions in the past 20 years where a a naval presence might have been required... and one of those was in East Timor .

                          While the New Zealand model has evolved to where it is now, it has taken 10 + years with a ship that has a life span of maybe another 15 years. We have gone from a second hand operator to a user of cutting edge vessels in sometime unique conditions and situations . Going back to a single hull of unproven worth with no clear role in the Irish type of ops is not where we should be going. We need to reinforce what we do now but increasing the capability of the type of hull need for real world operations such as anti piracy and people smuggling ops. We will never deploy troops independently of a mandated mission overseas and never beyond Battalion strenght, so why are we going to tie up a significant percentage of our capital and running costs in a ship that may or may not ever be used in a real world scenario in its intended role and if it isn't will be a very expensive fishery protection vessel.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            On the other hand we are an island nation three hours steaming from our nearest neighbour with who we are not aligned ( NATO),
                            no but we are increasingly becoming better (military) friends with

                            Our Defence Forces have deployed on two missions in the past 20 years where a a naval presence might have been required... and one of those was in East Timor .
                            UNIFIL has a naval component
                            UNMIL including landing Irish MOWAGs by Dutch LCUs
                            EUNAVFOR Med is a naval operation
                            INTERFET saw Irish troops being landed by Australian craft I think

                            It could be possible to get involved in other types of ops

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              My point exactly a multirole ships is not as 'multi role ' as we would like it to be and to tie up a building cost of €200 million in what is really a single role ship is wasteful for a navy that needs more hulls to carry out existing missions without even considering new ones.

                              Remove all the current pay and conditions issues and go back to the actual issue which is the procurement of ships and focus on the actual missions carried out since 2009. Even with the limited resources we have, tying a single hull up to provide support for an army that doesn't do the type of work the RNZN does is wasteful.

                              New Zealands area of operations in the South Pacific in a region that is made up of islands is justifiable, even the make up of the country would justify it. Their nearest neighbour is also their greatest naval partner and can support such missions.

                              On the other hand we are an island nation three hours steaming from our nearest neighbour with who we are not aligned ( NATO), Our Defence Forces have deployed on two missions in the past 20 years where a a naval presence might have been required... and one of those was in East Timor .

                              While the New Zealand model has evolved to where it is now, it has taken 10 + years with a ship that has a life span of maybe another 15 years. We have gone from a second hand operator to a user of cutting edge vessels in sometime unique conditions and situations . Going back to a single hull of unproven worth with no clear role in the Irish type of ops is not where we should be going. We need to reinforce what we do now but increasing the capability of the type of hull need for real world operations such as anti piracy and people smuggling ops. We will never deploy troops independently of a mandated mission overseas and never beyond Battalion strenght, so why are we going to tie up a significant percentage of our capital and running costs in a ship that may or may not ever be used in a real world scenario in its intended role and if it isn't will be a very expensive fishery protection vessel.
                              Every serving member would disagree with you. If the MRV is to be used sparingly for FP then great. It can be a secondary role for the vessel rather than primary role.
                              A crew would much rather be deployed on anything other than FP. Its time to stop thinking as the Navy as a FP only organisation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
                                Every serving member would disagree with you. If the MRV is to be used sparingly for FP then great. It can be a secondary role for the vessel rather than primary role.
                                A crew would much rather be deployed on anything other than FP. Its time to stop thinking as the Navy as a FP only organisation.
                                Even if it meant more seatime and longer patrols

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