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  • I have a strong belief that the WP is trying to be all things to all people but as it says itself everything is dependant on the country's financial situation.

    There is absolutely threats out there, but in the most case the military threat is remote. The biggest single threat to this State is economic!

    For that reason alone you won't see any Government borrowing huge amounts of money to pay for anything. When Garda stations were closed, local A&E's were shut down - those left open didn't really get an extra resources. Look at the waiting lists or Tusla not having enough social workers (and Ireland being cited by the UN over human rights).

    The reality is that any extra money will be prioritised to health, education, justice, housing, social welfare. Any money left over after that Defence may get priority.

    The WP talks about multi-annual budgets, medium-long term purchasing plans etc. All that is already done (there is room for improvement yes). They are to look at alternative and pooling & sharing etc.

    Before I look at equipment, the WP states that Baldonnel, Haulbowline, McKee and the Curragh all need essential capital projects that cannot be met from existing funding.

    What does the WP say is required? (figures are my estimates based on what has been spend in the past)
    an APC LEP / replacement programme (min €100m for a replacement programme)
    Armoured Logistics Vehicles (?)
    CASA replacement - consideration to larger more multi-role aircraft (min €40m)
    Cessna replacement - 3 larger ISTAR aircraft (probably around the €5-10m mark)
    Eithne replacement (min €100+ million)
    CPV replacement (say €60 million)
    Possibly Learjet replacement (say €10 million)

    Then the WP says if extra funding becomes available they will look at more APCs, more LTAVs, army AD capabilities, an air intercept capability and more NS vessels.

    Most of what is required is actually required (with no extra funding) is needed within the next 10 years or so.

    Add that up, the 2016 estimate for defensive equipment is € 21m, in the good times it hit a high of €37m for about 4 years.

    By the way a lot of other things are paid for out of that budget too that aren't necessarily headline grabbers (eg ammo for ops & training), etc.

    To get to the absolute min level of capability that is required (not desired) will require an absolute min of at least a guaranteed 52% increase in funding (over the current level) on defensive equipment for the next 10 years. Realistically that wouldn't deliver more capable APCs, larger maritime patrol aircraft, extensive armed MRV or extensive armed CPVs, that is just to maintain current capabilities (with the add of a larger EPV (with little capacity).

    That doesn't take account of inflation (my figures are based on in some cases what something cost in the 90s), etc.

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      True but it isn't to sabre rattle us
      Not just at the moment Dev, but one thing we can't have is no ability to control our area of responsibility, we run the risk of becoming another Belgium....
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

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      • I chose the San Georgio class because she is doing specifically what our next step should be if we are serious in having a vessel with Blue / Green Capability. Could move up to a battalion plus its equipment, while being able to operate two Merlin Size helos and has a very capable medical facility on board. Probably a little beyond what we can do, but is certainly where we should be going.

        Not specifically these which are up for retirement with an improved class on the way within the next few years. The floating dock and LCVPs appeal to me for Blue Green ops. If you can house 30 medium tanks, that about equal to the armoured mechanised element we deploy.

        At 8000 or so tonnes, shes not huge.
        Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 February 2016, 23:28.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • She can carry 350 troops not up to 850

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            She can carry 350 troops not up to 850
            Average Bn deployment is 500 people...hence the 'up to'!

            Bns don't deploy en masse but in 'chalk's leaving some people in situ while the fresh troops arrive. Normally a 'chalk' at a time. This hip would allow a 'chalk; plus its equipment, namely the armour to be deployed en masse.
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 February 2016, 23:38.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
              Average Bn deployment is 500 people...hence the 'up to'!

              Bns don't deploy en masse but in 'chalk's leaving some people in situ while the fresh troops arrive. Normally a 'chalk' at a time. This hip would allow a 'chalk; plus its equipment, namely the armour to be deployed en masse.
              Would be very handy for an initial deployment for sure. Get the bones of your Battalion and all their kit to the destination at one time, potentially on very short notice, and have the remainder fly in once everything is there. If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship. One other point, didn't Enda say he wanted a "hospital ship" at one point in the past? Surely this could tick a lot of boxes, and given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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              • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                Would be very handy for an initial deployment for sure. Get the bones of your Battalion and all their kit to the destination at one time, potentially on very short notice, and have the remainder fly in once everything is there. If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship. One other point, didn't Enda say he wanted a "hospital ship" at one point in the past? Surely this could tick a lot of boxes, and given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
                Well hell, there's always those 4 orphan Merlins from the RAF that aren't being respec'd to the Mk 2, what's the UK's plans with them? Also what was the price per unit for them? A quick look on Wiki says near $300 million back in the 80's, was that per unit or for the 3, has a price for the Algerian one been announced?

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                • If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship.

                  For merlins..insert three AW139s!!!

                  nd given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
                  Guess what the Italians have been using them for!!!!......Hence my suggestion.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • One Merlin = 28 Troops
                    One AW139 = 10 Troops (?)

                    Plus, is there a naval version of the AW139?
                    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                    Comment


                    • How about the RSS Endurance class:


                      Some similarities with existing Naval equipment, e.g. 76MM, Kelvin Hughes radar and even better - a small crew of 65

                      About €125 million, which includes 2x 23m Landing Craft + 2x 13m Landing Craft, a decent defensive suite including air search radar & mistrals.

                      And it sort of looks like a big patrol vessel, rather than a mini aircraft carrier.

                      Last edited by pym; 6 February 2016, 01:10.

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                      • Originally posted by pym View Post
                        How about the RSS Endurance class:

                        Some similarities with existing Naval equipment, e.g. 76MM, Kelvin Hughes radar and even better - a small crew of 65

                        About €125 million, which includes 2x 23m Landing Craft + 2x 13m Landing Craft, a decent defensive suite including air search radar & mistrals.

                        And it sort of looks like a big patrol vessel, rather than a mini aircraft carrier.
                        I think the Singaporeans have put together amazingly good value/good ROI ships, the Endurance class and the Formidable Frigates for example, but the Endurance's are only 15 knot ships, so I doubt even if things went nuts in the Government that she'd meet the EPV requirements.

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                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          I think the Singaporeans have put together amazingly good value/good ROI ships, the Endurance class and the Formidable Frigates for example, but the Endurance's are only 15 knot ships, so I doubt even if things went nuts in the Government that she'd meet the EPV requirements.
                          Yes I was surprised to see the engines were more or less in the same power class as the P60's - which I guess partly accounts for the speed constraint.

                          After a bit more reading, I see the Thai's use 120 crew on their vessel - so I guess the quoted price reflects some significant cost cutting.

                          Any thoughts on the likelihood of the NS looking beyond Europe for a builder?

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                          • im no way navy minded but would somthing like the meet the need
                            Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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                            • Originally posted by pym View Post
                              Yes I was surprised to see the engines were more or less in the same power class as the P60's - which I guess partly accounts for the speed constraint.

                              After a bit more reading, I see the Thai's use 120 crew on their vessel - so I guess the quoted price reflects some significant cost cutting.

                              Any thoughts on the likelihood of the NS looking beyond Europe for a builder?
                              In terms of the difference between the crew sizes, I wonder is that any reflection on training levels? Wasn't the Thai light Harrier Carrier pretty much called the Royal barge? Honestly with the scale of ship building in the Asian yards, if they gave us a good price why shouldn't we? I mean the South Korean yards can build the largest most heavily armed Burke class variant for themselves, and the RFA hulls for the UK so why not?

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                              • Originally posted by madmark View Post
                                http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...form-dock-7000

                                im no way navy minded but would somthing like the meet the need
                                Nice ship but again it has the problem that the Cobh dockyard would have to pay for a new dock or the Navy would need to go elsewhere, both doable but how much costs are involved and is it really the best spend for 1 hull?

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