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  1. #1
    CQMS
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    EPV for naval service



    In the past we have discussed(sort of) the type of ship we do not need(aircraft carriers) instead of the type we do. Given the current mission that is being undertaken by L.E. Niamh, I think it is time for a rethink on the policy of an 8 ship Naval Service as outlined by the white paper.

    At the time, the world was going through a period of relative peace,with no apparent risk to the world. Sept 11 has changed all that,and though we may not be directly affected by it,the states that usually carried the can of logistic support,the US and UK are now under pressure with commitments worldwide in the so called "war against terror".

    In the past when ireland went on resupply missions, it could do so safe in the knowledge that it would neither be a target for attack,and would be protected en route by other navies. It is time to realise that we no longer have that advantage. At sea we are at the moment(unless there is a change of foreign policy) on our own.

    Therefor what is needed is a re evaluation of our vessels self defence capability,though to be fair, what our vessels have always been armed with have recently been added to the deck armament of major US and RN warships,such as the HMG and GPMG. The current RIBs on all but the newer vessels should be replaced with larger types,more suitable for operating great distances from the "mother ship" i.e. beyond the horizon,as the P50s boats are.

    Secondly, the need for a vessel capable of carrying stores,equipment,vehicles and troops to overseas missions,and providing a C3 capability on arrival is now obvious. We can no longer assume that on arrival the mission will be set up,secure and awaiting our arrival. A "tactical advance to base camp" must be assumed in all future missions,and as few of these will be within walking distance of our fair isle,and airborne C3 is still a pipe dream for all but the Larger states and NATO a vessel cabable of this role is required.
    The vessel above would be what I would have in mind,or even the soon to be retired RFA "sirs" which proved their worth during the Falklands,(where one was destroyed in an Argentine attack,caused in some part to bad planning and lack of useful AA defence),have been resupplying UK forces in NI and Germany for the last 30 odd years and recently demonstrated their usefulness in the delivery of humanitarian aid to Basra in the closing stages of the "liberation" of Iraq.
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  2. #2
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    So it has maybe 2 re-supply trips in the year. What does it do for the rest of the year?

  3. #3
    tashkugan
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    I do believe that it is worth considering chartering or adding a supply vessel to the fleet (the chances are slim I know). You don't need a dedicated supply vessel per say but it could follow the norwegian or danish model where you use an OSV for just just this purpose.




    Now if you were to plan for this you could well come up with something like the canadian Kingston class which includes space for modular storage between the stacks.


  4. #4
    John
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    A subject like this came up a while ago and the Catamaran being evaluated by the U.S. was mentioned.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...s/ship/hsv.htm

    http://www.news.navy.mil/search/disp...?story_id=3137

    Mine Warfare Command and Control Configuration
    Proposed MCW load out would include:

    60 additional staff and personnel
    Four SH/MH-60S helos
    Six berthing trailers (10 berths per trailer)
    Two hotel services trailers (toilet/shower)

    Medical Support Facility Configuration
    A Single baseline HSV can be configured to carry:

    Six semi-trailers with fully-equipped operating rooms
    Four water tankers
    Four food trailers
    Four toilet/shower trailers
    Six HUMVEES
    Eight to Twelve passenger busses
    Radiological services
    Medical laboratory to include; pharmacy, optometry lab, and cat scan
    Mobile oxygen producing plant
    Portal between twin Hulls providing a lee in order to take on patients at sea
    Four Semi-Trailers hospital bed facility

    Maritime Intercept Operations Configuration
    HSV configured for ATFP / Maritime Intercept Operations (MIO) package:

    Augments ship’s force protection capabilities and provides a full spectrum of landside/waterside security functions for ship port visits.
    Force level protection is rapidly scalable and tailored to threat and host nation considerations.
    Minimizes high cost airlift and local civilian contracting requirements by bringing organic mission support capabilities with the vessel (C2, berthing/messing, barriers, etc.)
    44 additional personnel
    Two 21' RHIBs rapidly deployed via "Moon Pool" with boarding/security party
    Team of working dogs (cage area on vehicle deck 20'x20')
    Four HMMWVs
    Mammal pool (20'x20'x4' total weight 3500 pounds) deployed through "Moon Pool"
    Support USCG HH-60J JayHawk involved in SAR/Armed Recon/Drug Interdiction

    Notional Homeland Security (HLS) package:

    22 additional personnel
    Two 21' RHIBs rapidly deployed via "Moon Pool" with boarding/security party
    Two USCG HH-60J or Special Forces (MH-6) on deck (up to Six in vehicle storage area)
    Last edited by John; 14th October 2003 at 16:04.

  5. #5
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    One problem with cats and trimarans seems to be that they don't handle rough seas well. Look how often the fast ferry sailings are cancelled in moderate weather.
    .
    .
    .
    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  6. #6
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
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    John, your links are broken
    Meh.

  7. #7
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The RN are currently leasing vessels for amphib transport, and when these ships are not required for military service they work on commercial shipping route,carrying civilian cargo. However given the strain that our fleet is under I dont think it would be too impractical to keep such a vessel working full time. Remember stores are delivered to the countries ports by civilan chartered vessels, There is no reason why this task could not be carried out by such a naval vessel,all the time providing a valuable training ship.
    The Catmaran hull "fast ferry" type would be limited and over complicated for our needs.

  8. #8
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Send your requests on a post card.........has DF policy ever been changed by anything posted here....well whats the chances of getting what you desire.....maybe we should all chip in and sponsor one for the NS......By the way that canadian Yoke ........is that one of those that turned up in Portsmouth recently with the whole crew suffering from seasickness because of the poor sea handling....definetly don't want one of those......Yeah ! some of the north sea oil Support ships would be nice....at least they can handle heavy sea conditions
    Just visiting

  9. #9
    c22910
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    Would it not be a better use of budget to ship the materials commercially such as Hapag-lloyad and may provide escort with the niamh. It doesn't sound like we need this too often.

    Would we not get greater use out of providing the IAC with a C-130.

  10. #10
    tashkugan
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    An OSV would probably be the best option. I though the canadian idea was good from an inshore perspective as they have a huge coastline to patrol and supply etc. I mean we could always charter the Irish Lights Vessel Granuaile (20 ton crane & helipad) .



    either way (charter c-130/charter ship) resupplying the liberian mission is going to be a very interesting exercise. hope they ship out a good workshop and spare gearboxes for those mowags.

  11. #11
    CQMS
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    Some of you here are thinking too big. The catmaran type vessel is still a thing of the future,and would require all our current defence budget to maintain engines alone...

    The Offshore supply vessel style would be a good idea for pure resupply,as would the Grainuaile,but these vessels would have limited Command and control facilities,or would sarcrifice this space at the cost of potential troop transport.

    Consider the scenario of the operation. The sea is secure,land is not. Recce elements need to make their way ashore for prolongued periods to locate and perhaps create a base of operations for any possible operation. on the way out,you need to carry the troops,but you will need to carry most of the heavy equipment. A certain self defence capability is vital, as is good long range comms equipment. Helipads are optional,though the availability of one may make interoperability with other forces easier(East Timor for example).

    However as bravo pointed out when it is not engaged in this operation what could it do? Everything the current fleet can do and more hopefully. A combined Naval-Civilian nautical training ship has long been a requirment in this state, and the new naval/civilian nautical college being built in cork at the moment could make this ship a reality. Pollution control and monitoring is also a role the NS has neglected,due to other commitments. Of course there would be no reason that this ship type could not also carry out fisheries protection,visit foreign ports on economic and courtesy visits,drug interdiction etc...
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  12. #12
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    Poor New Zealand had their logs vessel taken!

    They had a small logisitcs vessel a few years back and it was retired, it could hold up to 100 troops and was an ex-merchant ship.

  13. #13
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Thats what happens when you let a woman be defence minister....

  14. #14
    Harry
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    Transport vessels....

    Just heard Irish Ferries are looking to let go some staff but more interestingly some ships too. Would the NS have a need for vessel such as the Jonathan Swift for moving UN Troops and gear to missions rather than relying on foreign Naval assets. Obviously, it's not high on NS requirements but would such a civvie ship be convertable to naval requirements and would a twin hulled vessel such as the Swift be capable of going tp places like Liberia or the middle east. I did see the USMC / USN using similar vessels for MEU's on Rapid Response detail. I think it's a bit embarrasing for the DF to be shoving as many FFR's as they can onto a patrol vessel such as the Eithne and then relying on foreign naval / air assets to transport the rest of the gear.

  15. #15
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    didn't the DF use a UN ro/ro type ship to get to a recent mission:confused:

  16. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    yeah but thing it was just contracted out

    British Navy currently has 2 (may be more) civilian Ro-Ro Container ships for moving stores/vehicles/etc between theatre

    but remember the Altantic Conveyor in the Falklands

  17. #17
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Irish sea ferries are not designed for long trips,most are only classified for Near Continental waters....As far as I know the vessels used to carry vehicles out to Eritrea were Car carriers,though I am not sure if the same type went to Liberia.

  18. #18
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    Re: Transport vessels....

    Originally posted by Harry
    Would the NS have a need for vessel such as the Jonathan Swift for moving UN Troops and gear to missions rather than relying on foreign Naval assets.
    I doubt the Swift has the range or space suitable for invading anything, but the Isle of Man. I think the number of high vehicles it can carry is also quite limited. At 50kt, shes fast, but I suspect is also expensive to run. You would need suitable dock space to unload, not just a quayside.

    I suspect the larger ferries would be of more use, but again range and consumables might be an issue. I think it's the Isle of Inishmore that has a large open rear deck, that if suitable braced could operate a number of helicopters (it currently can only handle only one helicopter atop the cabin space).

    I think the arrangment the RN / RFA has is it has a number of transports it either owns or has on long lease and when they are not needed they are let out on short leases, cutting the cost of ownership, while having a lot of deck space on shortish notice.

    Potentially what we would like is something that could lift at least half of the RRF battalion equipment in one lift, but at the same time have some other use that would make it cheap enough to keep.

    Separately there is the issue of having ammunition on commerical ships.
    Last edited by Victor; 20th February 2004 at 15:24.

  19. #19
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    And how do you think it gets here?

  20. #20
    C/S
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    Dirigible? :D

    My point is Irish Ferries are unlikely to carry any substantial amount of ammo and any ship that does will need the safety equipment and insurance to do so.

    From time to time Naval Service vessels have been used transport ammunition as they can flood their magazines if there is a fire.

  21. #21
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Irish ferries ships often carry far more dangerous cargo on TEU laden trucks. The trucks carry HAZ plates and the associated paraphenalia...
    I have often stated that the NS require a ship specifically for this purpose though.

  22. #22
    Harry
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    No I meant the NS buying or long term leasing one of the vessels and giving them a funky new grey paint job, not keeping them in Irish Ferries' hands. Although looking at the Swift today on the news I doubt it would be of much use to the DF, looks like the only thing it could transport is a few Fiat Seicentos (don't take me literally on that)

  23. #23
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Goldie, Iwas just looking through the DF strategy statement and something caught my eye, It mentioned increasing sealift capability I didn't know we had any to increase do you have any information on what their thinking about in term's of improved capability:confused:

  24. #24
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The UK MOD recently took delivery of a number of RO-RO ships,or sort of, For Strategic Sealift.
    Originally the Royal Fleet Auxiliary operated the Ro Ro Vessel Sea Crusader,but this was returned to her Parent Company after 7 Yeasr service.
    The Current Arrangement allows A.W.S.R. Shipping Ltd (AWSR) to supply the Ministry of Defence (MoD) with a multi-million world-wide strategic transport service through a new Private Finance Initiative (PFI). The sealift service contract will be worth approximately £950 million, depending upon the amount of operational and private usage of the ships, and will run until December 2024,providing ships and crews,which can be used for commercial trading when not required by the MOD.
    The company was established with the express purpose of bidding for the £950 million contract to construct and own six 20,000-tonne ro-ro vessels for service with the UK's Ministry of Defence (MoD).



    Hurst Point

  25. #25
    Vague
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    Recent naval moves in Europe are towards medium sized carriers and ships to move airpower and marines around for power projection.The only reason the Irish need a ship capable of delivering a unit overseas is for UN or EU missions and you wouldn't be conducting those missions alone.Someone else can take you along.No point in buying a big ship you'll rarely use when someone else will have one ready.A couple of tactical transports are faster and more adaptable.I'd be surprised if the Irish military ever deployed more than 700 troops overseas at once.Buy a couple of warships with big guns and lots of missles instead.They are more useful for patrol(which is the capability you want anyway) and you can blown stuff up with them.Thats the non-technical view on the situation.

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