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  1. #2176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    If that is the upper band of what we will spend there's no chance of getting a Frigate of any value.
    It's not going to be a frigate or anything like it, its just going to be an extra-large patrol vessel with all the stuff OPV's have in other militaries, like a helideck, an air-search radar and the ability to transport troops and equipment. Just going to be a lot longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    That was when the OPV, which ended up costing just over €100m each, were supposed to cost €80m
    The OPV's cost about €71 million each with gun and VAT included.

  2. #2177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It's not going to be a frigate or anything like it, its just going to be an extra-large patrol vessel with all the stuff OPV's have in other militaries, like a helideck, an air-search radar and the ability to transport troops and equipment. Just going to be a lot longer.



    The OPV's cost about €71 million each with gun and VAT included.
    My apologies. I misread articles like this one.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-34806125.html
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  3. #2178
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It's not going to be a frigate or anything like it, its just going to be an extra-large patrol vessel with all the stuff OPV's have in other militaries, like a helideck, an air-search radar and the ability to transport troops and equipment. Just going to be a lot longer.



    The OPV's cost about €71 million each with gun and VAT included.
    There the problem, can't do much longer without increasing the width, there for it gets longer and wider and deeper in the water, so in essence you need to go back to the drawing board... or buy something of the required size off the shelf. So its probably going to be one of the Off the shelf 110metre OPVs out here. Not the quantum leap expected by some.
    Time for another break I think......

  4. #2179
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    There the problem, can't do much longer without increasing the width, there for it gets longer and wider and deeper in the water, so in essence you need to go back to the drawing board... or buy something of the required size off the shelf. So its probably going to be one of the Off the shelf 110metre OPVs out here. Not the quantum leap expected by some.
    The article and costs mentioned in the Jim Brady piece is dated from 2016 and is referring to GBS. We must do two things. The first is to accept that our current OPV's while good at eyeball and radar surveillance are punching way below their platform ( 2200tonnes ) capability. The second is to programme an increased Defence capability for at least half the fleet with improved self defence, target acquisition, intelligence and surveillance gathering. A mooted increased spending could be E25m per ship.
    The MRV must come with these aspects covered as her operational environment is potentially nearer conflict. As regards length , 120meters is doable as using our current LB ratio of 6.25 we have a workable beam of 19.355 metres

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  6. #2180
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    The article and costs mentioned in the Jim Brady piece is dated from 2016 and is referring to GBS.
    Tom Brady is the journalist, Jim Brady was a pain in the arse!

    The first is to accept that our current OPV's while good at eyeball and radar surveillance are punching way below their platform ( 2200tonnes ) capability.
    Bigger than most corvettes but relatively lightly equipped in comparrison but the upgrades suggested should be included in any new build going forward and retrofitted after that.
    Time for another break I think......

  7. #2181
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Tom Brady is the journalist, Jim Brady was a pain in the arse!



    Bigger than most corvettes but relatively lightly equipped in comparrison but the upgrades suggested should be included in any new build going forward and retrofitted after that.
    Right about the name and the pain . Freudian slip. The GBS gun foundation is in place. The Farmers yard appearance of the dried out berth for a E70m ship is a nightmare. Hope all goes well.

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  9. #2182
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    There the problem, can't do much longer without increasing the width, there for it gets longer and wider and deeper in the water, so in essence you need to go back to the drawing board... or buy something of the required size off the shelf. So its probably going to be one of the Off the shelf 110metre OPVs out here. Not the quantum leap expected by some.
    Just as a matter of physics ships can be made shallower by widening the ship, consequently if you lengthen the ship and maintain breadth the ship will also be shallower . This is assuming you are maintaining a fixed tonnage. Overall length has the greater effect on ship cost plus of course outfit cost.
    In our case ship size will have to be compatible with our area of operations , and harbour accessibility, together with quay lengths and services AND not least the capacity of the Builders yard.
    As regards technical outfits we need to take into consideration recent problems with cyber security and software failure. Perhaps consider an inertial navigation system to back up dependence on satellites.

  10. #2183
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    But surely if size length and width goes up, so will displacement and thus depth or is there a formula that shows what proportions will directly affect depth?
    Time for another break I think......

  11. #2184
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    But surely if size length and width goes up, so will displacement and thus depth or is there a formula that shows what proportions will directly affect depth?
    LxBxD X Cb= disp = 10,000

    150X 20 x.7 = 2100

    10,000 divide 2100 =4.76D

    155X21 X.7 =2278.5

    10000 divide 2278.5 = 4.38, the effect for reduced draft at the same power is an increase in speed. The shape of the "box" determines the amount of water displaced . If you decide you wish to increase displacement , then draft will increase. Within constraints of fixed displacements altering one will effect the remainder of the dimensions except the block coefficient.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 5th October 2018 at 09:24.

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  13. #2185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    LxBxD X Cb= disp = 10,000

    150X 20 x.7 = 2100

    10,000 divide 2100 =4.76D

    155X21 X.7 =2278.5

    10000 divide 2278.5 = 4.38, the effect for reduced draft at the same power is an increase in speed. The shape of the "box" determines the amount of water displaced . If you decide you wish to increase displacement , then draft will increase. Within constraints of fixed displacements altering one will effect the remainder of the dimensions except the block coefficient.
    If you want to calculate outcomes, stick to feet and use formula [ L X B x D X .7 (Cb)] Feet , all divide by 35 gives displacement in SW eg. 500 X 70 X 15 x .7 =367500 cu ft, then divide by 35 cu ft per tonne in SW = 10500 tonne

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  15. #2186
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    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...3/question/47/

    Most recent almost answer from the almost minister.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  17. #2187
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    Ah FFS, when has cutting Capital Spending for Current Spending issues ever done anything other than store up problems anyway, it shouldn't be either or, but bloody both!

  18. #2188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Ah FFS, when has cutting Capital Spending for Current Spending issues ever done anything other than store up problems anyway, it shouldn't be either or, but bloody both!
    When cute in current expenditure were being used to fund capital expenditure

  19. #2189
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    Is the phrase "increase spending" in the vocabulary at all?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  20. #2190
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    "A flight deck capable of catering for Military STYLE helicopters." For f$ck sake what next.
    Last edited by sofa; 7th October 2018 at 22:43.

  21. #2191
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    As opposed to civilian style ones? He hasn't a clue, he is way out of his depth. I'm sure his briefing paper said type, but he decided style was the same word. Probably pronounced Shtyle.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  23. #2192
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    Remember the Department and/or his private staff write does answers .... you never know

  24. #2193
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Remember the Department and/or his private staff write does answers .... you never know
    When there are Notice Questions in Defence answers are constructed from trawled comments obtained from both uniformed Service and Public Service sources. At least there are signs of life with a definite catalyst , the decommissioning of LE Eithne. In the meantime manpower matters need to be resolved.

  25. #2194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    When there are Notice Questions in Defence answers are constructed from trawled comments obtained from both uniformed Service and Public Service sources. At least there are signs of life with a definite catalyst , the decommissioning of LE Eithne. In the meantime manpower matters need to be resolved.
    I for one will miss P31. I was at her launch on that dark winter evening, and got to know her internal layout so well over time that one of her previous XO's ended up following me, as he took me on a tour of the vessel.
    I fear she did not see her full potential, I hope this will not be repeated in whatever replaces her, furthermore I hope she is replaced by 2 ships of type, (as was originally th eplan, even with P31) not one.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  27. #2195
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    At least there are signs of life with a definite catalyst , the decommissioning of LE Eithne
    i would have added, the 'eventual' decommissioning of LE Eithne as to decommission a unit prior to having its replacement on the blocks would be fallacy.

    Eithne was always iconic to me, but her faults and shortcomings were every evident from very early on and while some were corrected during her life , some were never addressed. If anything she was plagued by policy failures rather than any thing else.

    The restriction in availability of her flight deck to helos above the size of the Dauphin was probably that which shortened her aviation related career most

    I agree that we do need two vessels to replace her if only to offer continuity through replication, although I'm unsure of what will replace her, especially at 200 million, its not going to offer a huge leap forward from where the P60 class are.
    Time for another break I think......

  28. #2196
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post

    I agree that we do need two vessels to replace her if only to offer continuity through replication, although I'm unsure of what will replace her, especially at 200 million, its not going to offer a huge leap forward from where the P60 class are.
    I think we'd all love to see 2 hulls, but realistically it's not going to happen either from a price tag point or the cost of expanding the NS to the point of being a 10 ship navy. As for the 200 million, I suppose again in part that would depend on what we end up actually picking as the "EPV", and how willing we are to look at other options. I mean didn't the Dutch for example get the the hulls of some ships built in cheaper Eastern European yards and then did the high tech/high value work at home to keep down the costs? And of course if there was a willingness to go Asian, got to imagine that South Korea could give a good ship for 200 million Euros.

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  30. #2197
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    Idle curiosity...

    What if, instead of building another ship - who's function and form no one can agree on - the €200m were spent on upgrades for the P60 class?

    Obviously it's too late to do anything about a flight deck, but what upgrades could be done to the existing fleet?

    Is the P60 a platform that could be upgraded to great effect with what is a relatively little sum, or is a platform that is limited as much by its design as by its fitting out budget?

  31. #2198
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Idle curiosity...

    What if, instead of building another ship - who's function and form no one can agree on - the €200m were spent on upgrades for the P60 class?

    Obviously it's too late to do anything about a flight deck, but what upgrades could be done to the existing fleet?

    Is the P60 a platform that could be upgraded to great effect with what is a relatively little sum, or is a platform that is limited as much by its design as by its fitting out budget?
    There is a professional recommendation that the new RN OPV's be upgraded to a frigate /corvette lite configuration at a cost of £120m for five ships. I was suggesting we should upgrade at least two of ours as leaders at about E 25m per ship. and continue with the MRV programme.

  32. #2199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is a professional recommendation that the new RN OPV's be upgraded to a frigate /corvette lite configuration at a cost of £120m for five ships. I was suggesting we should upgrade at least two of ours as leaders at about E 25m per ship. and continue with the MRV programme.
    And what would you get for €25m per ship?

    I can well imagine that you could put a decent radar, FCS, CIWS, guided munitions for the main gun, and something like Sea Ceptor on a P60 (though I doubt you could do it for €25m), but apart from making it a lot spikier, what more could it do?

  33. #2200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    And what would you get for €25m per ship?

    I can well imagine that you could put a decent radar, FCS, CIWS, guided munitions for the main gun, and something like Sea Ceptor on a P60 (though I doubt you could do it for €25m), but apart from making it a lot spikier, what more could it do?
    The shopping list includes a rotary UAV, increased Sigint and Elint capability, Anti-sub towed array OR Hull mounted sonar, 2 x 25/30mm auto cannon, 20mm CIWS to be fitted to suit Ops requirement from stock of at least two. Terma Scanter 4100 2d radar.Sea Gnat Soft Kill anti- missile decoy system. An RN type Combat Management System-1. Our biggest draw back is the lack of a flight deck for a longer range copter UAV. It was priced for 5 ships at £110 sterling about 50m Euro for two +/-

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