EPV for naval service

[hptmurphy]

Didn’t Enda say something about a hospital ship?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...hospital-ships

Yeah he said something about no property tax as well and look how that worked out!

[Sparky42]

As an interesting aside, here's the Qatar's planned new flagship:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/naval-exhibitions/2018/dimdex-2018/6056-dimdex-2018-qatari-navy-showcasing-its-future-air-defense-lpd.html

So an LPD with capability for 5 NH90's and an Aster 30 system, seems not sure what they want her to be.

[Graylion]

Bin the 76mm, total waste of effort on a ship of that type - put a CIWS (of whatever type) and a soft-kill DAS on it and it's good to go.

Going smaller makes no real sense either - a 10,000 ton AOR isn't a third of the price of a 30,000 ton AOR, it's just a lot less useful.

re: CIWS, that is what 76mm Strales is and what the MM uses it for. And I want to stick it on because we will probably still use her to patrol the EEZ.

[Sparky42]

re: CIWS, that is what 76mm Strales is and what the MM uses it for. And I want to stick it on because we will probably still use her to patrol the EEZ.

If we buy an AOR, it has zero purpose patrolling the EEZ, it should be either deployed on whatever mission we are doing (UN or EU) or resetting after a deployment or getting ready for the next deployment.

[Graylion]

As an interesting aside, here's the Qatar's planned new flagship:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/naval-exhibitions/2018/dimdex-2018/6056-dimdex-2018-qatari-navy-showcasing-its-future-air-defense-lpd.html

So an LPD with capability for 5 NH90's and an Aster 30 system, seems not sure what they want her to be.

They are buying 4 corvettes with EMPAR and also 16 VLS cells for Aster 30. The 'San' is going to be the flagship and provide the long range search capability.

A 'San' without VLS (maybe space for 2 ExLS), a good radar like SMART-S or TRS-4D R and 2 76mm Strales would be a very useful capability. We could do a lot with that, especially with a big hostpital on board. And it would cost a lot less that 400m. EMPAR, CMS, the EW suite and Sylver together are not cheap.

[na grohmiti]

That brings me back to the AOR idea. The Norwegian ship has a better hospital than RFA Argus and a follow-on order would presumably be a fair bit cheaper than the first unit. http://www.naval-technology.com/news...lss-programme/

One could also go for the smaller model Aegir 10R with hospital and get 120 lane metres for a company deployment added. That is what the Canadians are dooing to their Berlin class vessels. And stick a 76mm Strales in the bow and a second one on the hangar. 300 M€ maybe?

Why do I think your AOR idea is a dumb one?
I don't think you have done your research here, apart from maybe owning the latest issue of Janes'.

NONE of the irish naval flotilla are equipped to refuel from an AOR. Not one, and the location of the refuelling point (under the RHIB davits) make this an impossibility.
Can you see it just behind the stairway? No
L.É. Samuel Beckett by Pádraig Barrett, on Flickr
So by all means get your grey tanker for use overseas, but know for the rest of the time it will be doing nothing when at home for the other 9 months of the year. While the NS do train in RAS, the only items transferred by stay are parts or post.
Keep in mind also that an AOR requires a crew experienced in the handling, storage and transfer of hazardous liquid cargo. This is why most navies have these type of ship operated by experienced civilian crews.

[ropebag]

If we buy an AOR, it has zero purpose patrolling the EEZ, it should be either deployed on whatever mission we are doing (UN or EU) or resetting after a deployment or getting ready for the next deployment.

This, this, a thousand times this.

A 20k AOR would spend six months of the year on EU ops in the Med or off the Horn of Africa, 3 months of the year on humanitarian and drugs interdiction work in the Carribbean, a month doing work up drills with the rest of the NS and Army, and then spend 2 months in the paint and body shop - there would simply be no time for chasing Haddock thieves...

[Sparky42]

Why do I think your AOR idea is a dumb one?
I don't think you have done your research here, apart from maybe owning the latest issue of Janes'.

NONE of the irish naval flotilla are equipped to refuel from an AOR. Not one, and the location of the refuelling point (under the RHIB davits) make this an impossibility.
Can you see it just behind the stairway? No
snip
So by all means get your grey tanker for use overseas, but know for the rest of the time it will be doing nothing when at home for the other 9 months of the year. While the NS do train in RAS, the only items transferred by stay are parts or post.
Keep in mind also that an AOR requires a crew experienced in the handling, storage and transfer of hazardous liquid cargo. This is why most navies have these type of ship operated by experienced civilian crews.

Which brings us back to what is the point of the EPV? 200 million Euro's isn't enough to buy a full up frigate, more an expensive OPV, so are we going to have something that for Joint missions is still a unit that can only be used in the most permissive environment and of little value to a taskforce otherwise? If the Sealift of the Canterbury is too much are we looking at something like some of the current OPV's with just extra bunking for small units with no vehicles?

You're right that an AOR wouldn't be involved with the operations of the rest of the fleet, the question to me is should the Navy which has now moved to out of EEZ operations be looking at a hull that's still designed with EEZ operations as the main driver? As I've said before if we are still looking at EEZ driving things surely 2 more 60's with what's left over going into enlarging the personnel numbers should be considered.

[na grohmiti]

Which brings us back to what is the point of the EPV? 200 million Euro's isn't enough to buy a full up frigate, more an expensive OPV, so are we going to have something that for Joint missions is still a unit that can only be used in the most permissive environment and of little value to a taskforce otherwise? If the Sealift of the Canterbury is too much are we looking at something like some of the current OPV's with just extra bunking for small units with no vehicles?

You're right that an AOR wouldn't be involved with the operations of the rest of the fleet, the question to me is should the Navy which has now moved to out of EEZ operations be looking at a hull that's still designed with EEZ operations as the main driver? As I've said before if we are still looking at EEZ driving things surely 2 more 60's with what's left over going into enlarging the personnel numbers should be considered.

My understanding is P31 needs a Like for like replacement. At the time of launch P31 brought the NS new capabilities for a flotilla that up to then had concentrated on work within the 12 mile limit, and was just beginning to venture into the 200 mile EEZ. Now all but 2 ships are larger than P31 and fully equipped for EEZ patrolling and more. Introducing an EPV, the specifics of which are still pure speculation on our part other than what little we have heard officially, will provide further expansion of capability.
WHo knows in 30 years time we could have a fleet of ships equal in size to the EPV while we seek a replacement that will further expand capability. It has been a long road since this thread begun, much has changed in the meantime. We can be sure much more will change, even locally in the next 5 years, when it comes to what is expected from the NS. We need to future proof. This is what the EPV/MRV should do.

[DeV]

Which brings us back to what is the point of the EPV? 200 million Euro's isn't enough to buy a full up frigate, more an expensive OPV, so are we going to have something that for Joint missions is still a unit that can only be used in the most permissive environment and of little value to a taskforce otherwise? If the Sealift of the Canterbury is too much are we looking at something like some of the current OPV's with just extra bunking for small units with no vehicles?

You're right that an AOR wouldn't be involved with the operations of the rest of the fleet, the question to me is should the Navy which has now moved to out of EEZ operations be looking at a hull that's still designed with EEZ operations as the main driver? As I've said before if we are still looking at EEZ driving things surely 2 more 60's with what's left over going into enlarging the personnel numbers should be considered.

Do extra berths count as cargo carrying capacity?

[ancientmariner]

EPV

Do extra berths count as cargo carrying capacity?

We should wrap up talks of EPV's as we will shortly have 4 that are 20m. longer than our standard OPV's. Likewise talking about an Auxillary Oil Replenishment vessel should come much later , after the arrival of the proposed MRV. An AOR is part of sustained fleet operations as part of keeping ships on task. On the other hand a multirole vessel can do OPV/Surveillance work and support military/ humanitarian operations with flexible accommodation capacity for trip personnel and humanitarian staffs. it would also include provision for Fleet (multinational) command.
If replenishment ability was sustainable on all ships then such a ship could carry and deliver modest amounts of fuel and water designed to keep ships on task for the duration of their normal perishable stores. In other words a MULTI ROLE VESSEL.

[ropebag]

It's a very simple political question: do you want a vessel who's deployment will be asked for on EU operations - which brings kudos and diplomatic strength to your arm - or something that ****s about counting Pilchards for the next 30 years?

If you want something that brings you effect and diplomatic points then an AOR is about the only thing in your budget - you can't afford a frigate, you can't afford an amphib, you can't afford an aviation support ship, but €150m will buy you a huge, massively capable AOR that will be able to support EU operations around the world, and it will be asked for every time.

Unlike LE shit Frigate...

[Sparky42]

Lets just look at the "bare bones" Type 31, even with a very limited spec it's going to be at least £250 million with questions about it's purpose and capabilities, for the money we are talking about we can't even afford that, so what exactly are we looking at? €150 million gets you something like the Spanish BAM, or maybe a Holland class but they are just OPV's, capable ones and more future proof but still extremely limited for anything outside of EEZ operations.

The reason I suggested an AOR a long time ago was for the reasons ropebag posted, the EU navies do have gaps in the logistics chain and given our self imposed limitations something like an AOR could fly even if it's spending all it's time doing multinational operations, while being an actual capability that would be of value to the rest of the EU.

[DeV]

We should wrap up talks of EPV's as we will shortly have 4 that are 20m. longer than our standard OPV's. Likewise talking about an Auxillary Oil Replenishment vessel should come much later , after the arrival of the proposed MRV. An AOR is part of sustained fleet operations as part of keeping ships on task. On the other hand a multirole vessel can do OPV/Surveillance work and support military/ humanitarian operations with flexible accommodation capacity for trip personnel and humanitarian staffs. it would also include provision for Fleet (multinational) command.
If replenishment ability was sustainable on all ships then such a ship could carry and deliver modest amounts of fuel and water designed to keep ships on task for the duration of their normal perishable stores. In other words a MULTI ROLE VESSEL.

The multi bit could be all manner of things. We know a cargo capacity (at a substantial smaller level than the RNZN) and helo ops are wanted. For the rest we away the tender docs (let’s hope they spell it out better than the EPV ones).

It's a very simple political question: do you want a vessel who's deployment will be asked for on EU operations - which brings kudos and diplomatic strength to your arm - or something that ****s about counting Pilchards for the next 30 years?

If you want something that brings you effect and diplomatic points then an AOR is about the only thing in your budget - you can't afford a frigate, you can't afford an amphib, you can't afford an aviation support ship, but €150m will buy you a huge, massively capable AOR that will be able to support EU operations around the world, and it will be asked for every time.

Unlike LE shit Frigate...

Lets just look at the "bare bones" Type 31, even with a very limited spec it's going to be at least £250 million with questions about it's purpose and capabilities, for the money we are talking about we can't even afford that, so what exactly are we looking at? €150 million gets you something like the Spanish BAM, or maybe a Holland class but they are just OPV's, capable ones and more future proof but still extremely limited for anything outside of EEZ operations.

The reason I suggested an AOR a long time ago was for the reasons ropebag posted, the EU navies do have gaps in the logistics chain and given our self imposed limitations something like an AOR could fly even if it's spending all it's time doing multinational operations, while being an actual capability that would be of value to the rest of the EU.

We need another vessel capable of OPV work but also capable of other things (no one here know what those other things are yet (we know what we would like them to be)).

Not forgetting of of course for most overseas work the NS is subject to the triple lock.

[na grohmiti]

The multi bit could be all manner of things. We know a cargo capacity (at a substantial smaller level than the RNZN) and helo ops are wanted. For the rest we away the tender docs (let’s hope they spell it out better than the EPV ones).

???
The EPV never went to tender. There was RPV (Request for proposals) which outlined a basic requirement. Proposals were accepted, reviewed, then in the midst of a recession priority was given to replacing the 3 P21 type OPV. The EPV plans were shelved. We did well to manage that, given the extreme financial stress the country was under. We were in 2008 looking at 2 OPV with an option for a third, and 1 EPV with an option for a 2nd. Since 2010 we have seen delivery of both initially ordered OPVs, the option for a third exercised, and a fourth opv due for delivery later this summer.
I am sure that the Proposals received back in 2008 have well expired, almost 10 years on, and the requirement has moved on too.