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  1. #1976
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Presumably gas turbines are for high speed (and are associated high fuel consumption)?

    There is a reason why the NS is doing things like single engine running, getting PTO/PTI on the newer vessels, the kite project etc

    http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/use...__English_.pdf
    Have a look at the last few pages

    the MRV IMHO should look at integrating the kite project (or at least have space for it). It isn’t just to do with cost efficiency and the environment but also sensors.

    But any NS vessel really needs a 20kts min speed
    Last edited by DeV; 3rd March 2018 at 10:39.

  2. #1977
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    I thought that kite idea had been shelved?

  3. #1978
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    The kite project is a private venture, the NS were acting only as a testbed. We are a long way from it being a practical operational solution.
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  5. #1979
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Absolutely but space for it - even for sensor use

  6. #1980
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Absolutely but space for it - even for sensor use
    There is already space for it. It is still in prototype stage.
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  8. #1981
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    Presumably gas turbines are for high speed (and are associated high fuel consumption)?
    In smaller vessels Gas Turbines are usually configured with Dielsel engines a CODAG or various other acronyms ( Combination Of Diesel And Gas) and are used for dash speed rather and the Diesels used for cruising or patrolling.

    As was pointed out they present their own issues around how they breath and fuelling issues......but you don't move into high end frigate territory without them as you can't make the speed required to take you out of OPV territory.

    Hence the multipliers rather additions in costs, so you stay on the low end scale at a reduced rate of knots at an acceptable price or ratchet it up by 10kts and blow the budget out of the water.

    For the amount dash speed in excess of the max speed our current vessels have is required, its a no brainer stay away from Gas Turbines, but if you want to build a vessel that can reach beyond that, which btw Absalon can't being limited to 24kts, you need to start looking at the various combinations.

    the Iver whats its face has a CODAD set up eared to two shafts that will give you a max of 30 kts and cruises at 18kts, so thats actually quiet do able... but at a cost of $250 million per ship.. not happening!
    Time for another break I think......

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  10. #1982
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Most GTs need vast intakes and exhaust spaces, this creates an inbuilt avenue to remove them wen required. Latest idea in the ship industry where GT are used is to place them on an upper deck, and use them to supply power to AC motors driving props or Azipods.
    Not sure it has a practical Naval application though.
    CVF do you?

  11. #1983
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    We have 4 new OPV, and 2 ready for mid life. Buy 2 of these (sans RAM) and one MRVhttps://www.fassmer.de/en/shipbuilding/products/navy-vessels/opv-2020/

  12. #1984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    CVF do you?
    Enlighten me. Are azipods used powered by generators run from a gt located above the main deck?
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  13. #1985
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Enlighten me. Are azipods used powered by generators run from a gt located above the main deck?
    nearly.

    IFEP

    Electric motors driving tha shafts, diesels providing cruise power located below the waterrline, 2 MT 30 GT in aft superstructure.

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  15. #1986
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    nearly.

    IFEP

    Electric motors driving tha shafts, diesels providing cruise power located below the waterrline, 2 MT 30 GT in aft superstructure.
    Is that similar to the set up on the new Australian carrier?
    Time for another break I think......

  16. #1987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    nearly.

    IFEP

    Electric motors driving tha shafts, diesels providing cruise power located below the waterrline, 2 MT 30 GT in aft superstructure.
    Azipods, usually used in multiples of 2, or 3 are steerable gondola units each fitted with a propellor and fitted similar to rudder style vertical mounts. The electric motor, up to 20mw on cruise liners and maybe CV's, is contained within the gondola unit, powered from the ships propulsion diesels. They can thrust in any direction. They are Finnish invention and favoured by Cruise ship designers.

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  18. #1988
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Azipods, usually used in multiples of 2, or 3 are steerable gondola units each fitted with a propellor and fitted similar to rudder style vertical mounts. The electric motor, up to 20mw on cruise liners and maybe CV's, is contained within the gondola unit, powered from the ships propulsion diesels. They can thrust in any direction. They are Finnish invention and favoured by Cruise ship designers.
    Yes, but the QEs don't have pods. The Juan Carlos and Canberras have Siemens pods - not Azipods. Pods are a problem still - both on cruise ships and warships - the bearings seem to give. Thast is why they are not used on the QEs

  19. #1989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Yes, but the QEs don't have pods. The Juan Carlos and Canberras have Siemens pods - not Azipods. Pods are a problem still - both on cruise ships and warships - the bearings seem to give. Thast is why they are not used on the QEs
    i

    Indeed azipod THRUST bearings were/are a problem. The biggest one being , because they are submerged in the pod, a drydocking was required to effect repairs. The designers of azipod have produced a version whereby bearings can be replaced afloat. A high percentage of Cruise line companies favour the concept as it frees up space on board- no shafting, no thrust bearings , no intermediate bearings, no rudders, no gear boxes etc. More space for paying customers. I'm sure who ever makes Azimuthing propulsion units ie. Siemens or ABB they all have the same operational characteristics. An interesting aside, although we are receiving frequent visits from such ships to Irish Ports, we cannot provide drydocking services on our side of the island. It is ironic that DPA killed off a dock to make more room for cruise Liners.

  20. #1990
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    Didn’t Enda say something about a hospital ship?

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...hospital-ships

  21. #1991
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Didn’t Enda say something about a hospital ship?

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...hospital-ships
    The only place that would see service is Aliaga or Alang. It was built as a tanker in 1974. Every other similar vessel of that vintage has already broken in two by now.
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  23. #1992
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    That brings me back to the AOR idea. The Norwegian ship has a better hospital than RFA Argus and a follow-on order would presumably be a fair bit cheaper than the first unit. http://www.naval-technology.com/news...lss-programme/

    One could also go for the smaller model Aegir 10R with hospital and get 120 lane metres for a company deployment added. That is what the Canadians are dooing to their Berlin class vessels. And stick a 76mm Strales in the bow and a second one on the hangar. 300 M€ maybe?

  24. #1993
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    You really have a boner for strales. Are you a rep for them?
    It is unproven and not in widespread use.
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  26. #1994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    That brings me back to the AOR idea. The Norwegian ship has a better hospital than RFA Argus and a follow-on order would presumably be a fair bit cheaper than the first unit. http://www.naval-technology.com/news...lss-programme/

    One could also go for the smaller model Aegir 10R with hospital and get 120 lane metres for a company deployment added. That is what the Canadians are dooing to their Berlin class vessels. And stick a 76mm Strales in the bow and a second one on the hangar. 300 M€ maybe?
    Bin the 76mm, total waste of effort on a ship of that type - put a CIWS (of whatever type) and a soft-kill DAS on it and it's good to go.

    Going smaller makes no real sense either - a 10,000 ton AOR isn't a third of the price of a 30,000 ton AOR, it's just a lot less useful.

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  28. #1995
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Going smaller makes no real sense either - a 10,000 ton AOR isn't a third of the price of a 30,000 ton AOR, it's just a lot less useful.
    Pretty much really, I mean if we were investing in such a hull I'd just go with one "off the shelf" instead of trying to mess around with it.

  29. #1996
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Didn’t Enda say something about a hospital ship?

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...hospital-ships
    Yeah he said something about no property tax as well and look how that worked out!
    Time for another break I think......

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  31. #1997
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    As an interesting aside, here's the Qatar's planned new flagship:
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...fense-lpd.html

    So an LPD with capability for 5 NH90's and an Aster 30 system, seems not sure what they want her to be.

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  33. #1998
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Bin the 76mm, total waste of effort on a ship of that type - put a CIWS (of whatever type) and a soft-kill DAS on it and it's good to go.

    Going smaller makes no real sense either - a 10,000 ton AOR isn't a third of the price of a 30,000 ton AOR, it's just a lot less useful.
    re: CIWS, that is what 76mm Strales is and what the MM uses it for. And I want to stick it on because we will probably still use her to patrol the EEZ.

  34. #1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    re: CIWS, that is what 76mm Strales is and what the MM uses it for. And I want to stick it on because we will probably still use her to patrol the EEZ.
    If we buy an AOR, it has zero purpose patrolling the EEZ, it should be either deployed on whatever mission we are doing (UN or EU) or resetting after a deployment or getting ready for the next deployment.

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  36. #2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    As an interesting aside, here's the Qatar's planned new flagship:
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...fense-lpd.html

    So an LPD with capability for 5 NH90's and an Aster 30 system, seems not sure what they want her to be.
    They are buying 4 corvettes with EMPAR and also 16 VLS cells for Aster 30. The 'San' is going to be the flagship and provide the long range search capability.

    A 'San' without VLS (maybe space for 2 ExLS), a good radar like SMART-S or TRS-4D R and 2 76mm Strales would be a very useful capability. We could do a lot with that, especially with a big hostpital on board. And it would cost a lot less that 400m. EMPAR, CMS, the EW suite and Sylver together are not cheap.

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