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  • From the illustrations under discussion, at least, the flight deck appears to be proportioned and marked in a manner familiar to any civilian SAR/offshore contract pilot.

    Between this, and a preceding discussion, I believe we're talking about maritime rather than naval flight operations. The difference being the limiting of operations to less severe sea states and the use of brute force, and perhaps a small tractor, to move aircraft on deck.

    Comment




    • A lot of thought appears to have gone into the positioning of the full breadth boat-deck.

      Forward and higher than other options previously discussed it is likely much better positioned for winter operations in the North Atlantic.

      If I might suggest; the enclosure of the landing craft davit area, followed by rationalising trade of internal space with the aircraft hangar, and the installation of an appropriate overhead crane (capable of small-craft launching and retrieval) would allow for even more utility to be generated from this space.

      In addition to the operation of RHIBs, CB90s, and even full size LCVPs, the space could be used to secure bulky and heavy, yet delicate equipment for use in Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Recovery (HADR) missions.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        So how did the Perry class frigates for example handle two Seahawks (for the later flight) with two separate hangers mange with a much smaller beam than what is proposed in this design?
        The Perry's used the RAST System to recover and transfer the helicopters. This was an improved version of the Beartrap system developed by the Canadians.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XvdXwgYN_s

        However most vessels of this type (LPD/LSD/LSS) do not have any dedicated recovery system as they are not expected to operate helicopters in all weather situations.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post


          A lot of thought appears to have gone into the positioning of the full breadth boat-deck.

          Forward and higher than other options previously discussed it is likely much better positioned for winter operations in the North Atlantic.

          If I might suggest; the enclosure of the landing craft davit area, followed by rationalising trade of internal space with the aircraft hangar, and the installation of an appropriate overhead crane (capable of small-craft launching and retrieval) would allow for even more utility to be generated from this space.

          In addition to the operation of RHIBs, CB90s, and even full size LCVPs, the space could be used to secure bulky and heavy, yet delicate equipment for use in Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Recovery (HADR) missions.
          Good idea; for the sake of a meter or two, it would be preferable to have a full-size LCVP (16m) rather than the odd 15m LC. This could be the Damen 1604 design used by the RN and Dutch Navy and would also allow for a CB90 as they can be launched from the same davit system.
          Also if the area was enclosed with a roof mounted traversing crane this would make the vessel more flexible allowing a mix n' match of helicopters, LC, containers etc.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            Good idea; for the sake of a meter or two, it would be preferable to have a full-size LCVP (16m) rather than the odd 15m LC. This could be the Damen 1604 design used by the RN and Dutch Navy and would also allow for a CB90 as they can be launched from the same davit system.
            Also if the area was enclosed with a roof mounted traversing crane this would make the vessel more flexible allowing a mix n' match of helicopters, LC, containers etc.
            Not so sure of internalising boat launching sites within mainly watertight boundaries, or carry LCVP's with an optional reload of Combat Boats of similar dimensions. Maybe stick with the current design and carry either LCVP's or 2 CB90 craft, the latter requires manning to include weapon positions. In any event large spaces would greatly benefit from having an XY overhead crane system. Have a look at the new Logs ship on the block Norwegian navy LSV MAUD.

            Comment


            • Vard have been showcasing the 7313 at IMDEX Asia, alongside a 100m LST,


              Vancouver, BC (June 13, 2019) – Philly Shipyard and Vard Marine are pleased to announce that their bid to conduct industry studies for the Common Hull Auxiliary Multi-Mission Platform (CHAMP) program has been selected by the U.S. Navy.The CHAMP program is a multi-phase effort that involves design studies, preliminary design, and detail design and construction more...


              VARD Marine Inc., a Fincantieri company, is for the first time publicly showcasing two new 7-Series designs, the 7 510 Landing Ship Tank and the 7 313 Multi-Purpose Logistic Vessel at IMDEX Asia 2019, held in Singapore.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herald View Post
                Vard have been showcasing the 7313 at IMDEX Asia, alongside a 100m LST,

                Vancouver, BC (June 13, 2019) – Philly Shipyard and Vard Marine are pleased to announce that their bid to conduct industry studies for the Common Hull Auxiliary Multi-Mission Platform (CHAMP) program has been selected by the U.S. Navy.The CHAMP program is a multi-phase effort that involves design studies, preliminary design, and detail design and construction more...


                https://www.navalnews.com/event-news...support-ships/
                Interesting that they mention that they have a customer for the LST but no mention on any interest in the other design?

                Comment


                • I see Damen had a Crossover design for the Singapore requirements as well at IMDEX
                  At this year's IMDEX Asia, Dutch shipbuilder DAMEN unveiled a new variant of its CROSSOVER design specifically configured to answer the future MRCV requirement of the Republic of Singapore Navy.

                  Comment


                  • From the Original Statement of Requirement (EPV) Appendix B Con/195/2006

                    "Proposals should include separately the option of a facility for cargo discharge where no port infrastructure exists."

                    [I'll ask regular threaders to bear with me while I conduct a primer for those new to the topic.]

                    When operating in a Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Recovery environment where port facilities have been, essentially, destroyed; the use of LCVPs will be necessary to land relief supplies, vehicles, and personnel.

                    The transfer of matériel to small craft at sea can be, to put it mildly, a tricky business under even the most benign conditions. Navies have developed a number of technologies and techniques to make the process safer, faster, and more reliable in difficult and often stressful environments.



                    The Well Dock (in model cutaway)

                    The well dock is designed so that the rear of the ship can be semi-submerged, by means of ballast tanks, to provide the most protected environment possible for loading and unloading of landing craft. It can help assure the ability to operate in even quite difficult sea conditions but; because it is expensive to build and operate, and takes up a large portion of a ship's interior space; it is generally only used for the most time critical applications.



                    Direct Loading by Ship's Crane

                    This is the most dangerous, difficult, and slowest method to move vehicles and cargo ashore via landing craft. Extreme vulnerability to weather conditions make it relatively unreliable.



                    Steel Beach (Pontoon)

                    A Steel Beach (Pontoon) is designed to be a safer, easier and faster method than direct loading by crane. Essentially it's the use of a relatively simple pontoon with; a vehicle ramp from the mother-ship and, an inclined face to facilitate the safer docking of landing craft. HMS Ocean's Steel Beach is pictured here. After use it is lifted from the sea by ship's crane, drained, brought onto the flight deck, cleaned, folded, and finally bolted to the ship's stern for transit. Unloading, particularly of vehicles, is still relatively slow and vulnerable to weather conditions and weight restrictions.



                    Steel Beach (Integrated)

                    Integrating the Steel Beach directly into the mother-ship greatly improves the safety and speed of unloading while eliminating the weight restrictions that come with pontoon operations. It also makes the process more reliable by reducing operational vulnerability to the majority of weather conditions. This functionality requires a modest increase in the vessel's length so as not to reduce it's overall carrying capacity. In the case of the proposed vessel under discussion this would be something in the region of 10 metres. For the HNLMS Karel Doorman, a much larger vessel illustrated above, it is more.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      So what you’d like to see in a new RFP then



                      .. a stern that looks, effectively, something like this...
                      • ISO Containerised Mission Equipment Access through to vehicle deck
                      • Integrated Steel Beach sufficient to dock a single LCU or (ideally) two LCVP
                      • A Stern Quarter Ramp canted 45° to starboard for heavy vehicle loading

                      (Exact Dimensions and Placement Variable)
                      Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 18 May 2019, 02:34.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect;

                        .. a stern that looks, effectively, something like this...
                        [LIST
                        [*]ISO Containerised Mission Equipment Access through to vehicle deck[*]Integrated Steel Beach sufficient to dock a single LCU or (ideally) two LCVP[*]A Stern Quarter Ramp canted 45° to starboard for heavy vehicle loading[/LIST]
                        (Exact Dimensions and Placement Variable)
                        We must be practical and look at the traditional way of moving personnel, vehicles, and cargo including containers from ship to shore.
                        Containers are normally dropped into or on to a space including on top of another container. They come out by direct hoist to shore.
                        Vehicles are normally driven on to the ship and disembark the same way. Personnel walk on to allotted spaces and are disembarked by LCVP's or similar.
                        Quarter ramp is a consideration, continue with davit launched LCVP's, load containers to J-bolted assigned positions on deck.
                        Forget steel beaches unless we build a much longer ship. Don't load containers through stern apertures, moving to and from assigned positions would be technically complex. The ship would have to operate to a port or with LCT assistance elsewhere, with own LCVP's.

                        Comment


                        • It would be beneficial if an extended visit, or ship/ crew exchange could be made to Ireland, with an existing ‘MRV’ vessel most similar to likely requirements...

                          To give the whole country, including politicians and the public, a taste of what is being contemplated -
                          visiting various ports, helicopter landings with Air Corp and Coast Guard helicopters (?), and maybe doing a few Naval Service at-sea, and army/ NS shore exercises, and patrols.

                          I’m suggesting again a Singapore RSS Endurance Class ship, or less so, the New Zealand Navy ‘Canterbury’ (though the Canterbury has been inspected already? and is a bit overweight and height?).

                          Unless , there is a commercial specifications and small crew Damen Crossover ship also available for the same purpose visit?

                          Note: Endurance Class ships in the Singapore Navy are planned to be replaced in the short term, from around 2020 (at circa 25 years age), and include 2x25t deck cranes, and a deck for two 10t helicopters (e.g. Super Puma), etc..

                          The Endurance Class Landing Ships Tanks (LSTs) are in service with the Republic of Singapore Navy (RSN). The ships are…

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
                            It would be beneficial if an extended visit, or ship/ crew exchange could be made to Ireland, with an existing ‘MRV’ vessel most similar to likely requirements...

                            To give the whole country, including politicians and the public, a taste of what is being contemplated -
                            visiting various ports, helicopter landings with Air Corp and Coast Guard helicopters (?), and maybe doing a few Naval Service at-sea, and army/ NS shore exercises, and patrols.

                            I’m suggesting again a Singapore RSS Endurance Class ship, or less so, the New Zealand Navy ‘Canterbury’ (though the Canterbury has been inspected already? and is a bit overweight and height?).

                            Unless , there is a commercial specifications and small crew Damen Crossover ship also available for the same purpose visit?

                            Note: Endurance Class ships in the Singapore Navy are planned to be replaced in the short term, from around 2020 (at circa 25 years age), and include 2x25t deck cranes, and a deck for two 10t helicopters (e.g. Super Puma), etc..

                            https://www.naval-technology.com/pro...ship-tank-lst/
                            I am confident that a ship to meet our requirements can be acquired in the short term. Training / demonstration trips could easily be acquired with any European Navy . Basic to do list-- Support our ships with fuel and if needed water-- conduct international HADR missions-- carry out peacetime naval Missions including electronic surveillance-- Transport/Ferry troops and vehicles-- conduct necessary boat work--provide a tactical helicopter deck to include fuelling-- resupply units on overseas missions-- provide National "show the Flag" missions world wide--be fitted with handling facilities to carry out all missions--be fitted with ballasting facilities to maintain at least half voyage displacement. etc...
                            Last edited by ancientmariner; 18 May 2019, 15:02.

                            Comment


                            • If the AC/NS and Army accepted the bi-annual invitations to Joint Warrior you'd see, and look around, and operate with and on, every possible iteration of PV, Logistics ship, and Assault ship going - that would then allow you sit down with a blank sheet and pencil in the features/capabilities you want.

                              There's even a 'politician handling cell' at Faslane to look after visitors - and if you ask them nicely, they'll make sure your visiting politician/hack/beancounter sees the things you want them to see, and be persuaded of the things you want them to think...

                              International cooperation is ace, you should try it...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                                If the AC/NS and Army accepted the bi-annual invitations to Joint Warrior you'd see, and look around, and operate with and on, every possible iteration of PV, Logistics ship, and Assault ship going - that would then allow you sit down with a blank sheet and pencil in the features/capabilities you want.

                                There's even a 'politician handling cell' at Faslane to look after visitors - and if you ask them nicely, they'll make sure your visiting politician/hack/beancounter sees the things you want them to see, and be persuaded of the things you want them to think...

                                International cooperation is ace, you should try it...
                                To be fair think it's more the TDs and DOD that are the issue there rather than the services themselves.

                                Comment

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