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  1. #1601
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    A cynic might say they don't want helicopters because it would mean fewer hulls.

  2. #1602
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Yeah plus a new aviation division/transplants from the don means more competition for cushy appointments.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  3. #1603
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    so if someone from a shore appointment is detached to a vessel due to crew shortages they don't get PDA
    Don't know what the criteria is these days, but back in the day unless you were posted to a ship you didn't get PDA...and the ship had to be on a recognised patrol to get that.

    Patrol Duty Allowance back in the 1980s was 5 pounds and Five pence..per day!!!!

    We all have heard ad nauseam about the Eithne experiment disaster but how is it that the NS is the only operator of grey ships that thinks they're pointless?
    I would suggest that it is pointless if you don't have a helo to operate and there isn't an option to operate one on the horizon.

    The concept is sound enough but the reality being its not going to happen as long as the AC buy helos that are non compatible with ships and not even the slightest effort was made to have them compatible.

    Yes given the role of the NS is expanding beyond territorial waters and the proposal for an MRV may become a reality then it should facilitate a heli deck and fueling facilities.

    If that works and gets regular use then future builds should potential include heli facilities. If not having heli capacity was the cost of having extra ships..so be it. Ships have 30 years plus life span. if you don't get them in the water to replace aging assets you may never get them.

    Should we have lost a ship because of a tennis court on each of the others....given the use it would get..certainly not!
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 13th August 2017 at 21:22.
    Just visiting

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  5. #1604
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Have the EU provided any funds since Eithne?
    €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.

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  7. #1605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.
    Is that per year or just a once off lump sum?

  8. #1606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Is that per year or just a once off lump sum?
    Just €12 million, not sure if its a lump sum or spread out over the six years.

  9. #1607
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Not much considering they gave us half the cost of Roisin (not sure about Niamh)

  10. #1608
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    new ships

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not much considering they gave us half the cost of Roisin (not sure about Niamh)
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.

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  12. #1609
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    Ship is conned by the OOW usually from the centre bridge window for any coastal/berthing/anchoring ops. This combined with a lookout again at the bridge windows ensures safe pilotage and navigation of the the P60. Not to mention 2 x navigation radars. The information is fed from the wheel, engines, comms to the OOW with the OC supervising from his chair if necessary.

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  14. #1610
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action.
    Which of course means we have to decide (a) what we want the MRV to do (b) what level of military ops we want (and can afford)



    Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    From what I remember of being on Beckett, the consoles don't really block the view

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...7535/image.jpg

  15. #1611
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    SDC13846
    View of Bridge wing from above.
    SDC13832
    The Gentleman is standing at the centre bridge window. You'll note there is a gap behind him where there are no consoles. Should the OC chose to remain in his seat, he has an unobscured view forward at all times.
    SDC13834
    The Location of the OCs seat, showing the overlooking view it offers.
    I can only recommend you take the time to visit one of the vessels for yourself someday. Don't be afraid to tell them your background and the crew will be more than happy to show you around. Some exers even partake in an annual "trip on a ship" though I appreciate this is not to everyones taste. The situational awareness the combination of consoles and visibility provides is excellent. Granted P31 had a better view aft from the bridge, but she was a notable exception in service.
    It is still light years ahead of operating with radar at night in the 70s and 80s, with your ARPA either behind a curtain or under a cone.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  17. #1612
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The Location of the OCs seat, showing the overlooking view it offers.
    I can only recommend you take the time to visit one of the vessels for yourself someday. Don't be afraid to tell them your background and the crew will be more than happy to show you around. Some exers even partake in an annual "trip on a ship" though I appreciate this is not to everyones taste. The situational awareness the combination of consoles and visibility provides is excellent. Granted P31 had a better view aft from the bridge, but she was a notable exception in service.
    It is still light years ahead of operating with radar at night in the 70s and 80s, with your ARPA either behind a curtain or under a cone.
    Despite having toured the ship, I'm of the opinion that near water views, other than forward of the consoles is not available. OOW is compromised if he needs to maneuver the ship without a second pair of hands and EYES.

  18. #1613
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    Well he is never going to be alone on the bridge in any situation. Would be different in a merchant vessel of course. The vessel can be conned from either bridge wing or the normal position.
    The layout in my opinion is a vast improvement on days of old. Helm and engine control are out of the line of sight of the OOW or the OC. Meantime within his peripheral are MFDs showing anything from engine management to radar, ECDIS, AIS and if necessary EOD. The area in front of these consoles allows him the advantage of no light pollution from consoles should he need to focus on distant lights etc. Last skipper I had used to throw a teatowel over the Radar screen at night to save his night vision.
    Many of the displays are also available to the skipper in his stateroom, via his PC.

    You should really try and get a jolly on her.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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