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  • For those suggesting HMS Ocean

    She has been reportedly sold to Brazil for UK£ 84m

    Interesting video on her design and operation

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    • I do wonder how much time/resources she's going to soak up given her reported material state, better than Foch without question but still going to need a lot of care and attention.

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      • Had a £65m refit just 4 years ago reportedly

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        • She is at the end of her 20 year expected lifespan.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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          • Originally posted by Orion View Post
            Had a £65m refit just 4 years ago reportedly

            https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89...try-of-Defence
            Think that was basically a "keep her going till she's out the door" refit, rather than actually tackling her major material issues.

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            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
              She is at the end of her 20 year expected lifespan.
              I've seen reports that it's even more than that, when she was being built reportedly to keep the costs down many major parts/systems were picked from end of production line equipment so now getting parts/spares for sustaining her (like her engines for example) is getting more difficult as well as just the general knacked state she's in from usage.

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              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                I've seen reports that it's even more than that, when she was being built reportedly to keep the costs down many major parts/systems were picked from end of production line equipment so now getting parts/spares for sustaining her (like her engines for example) is getting more difficult as well as just the general knacked state she's in from usage.
                A ship maintained and refitted with a view to extending usage will always be capable as designed. However if a newer larger version, in this case two, arrives in the fleet, then something has to give if the same manpower levels are to be adhered to. The Brazilians will be happy with their purchase, and are technically capable to get use from a ship 15 years younger than our P31.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  A ship maintained and refitted with a view to extending usage will always be capable as designed. However if a newer larger version, in this case two, arrives in the fleet, then something has to give if the same manpower levels are to be adhered to. The Brazilians will be happy with their purchase, and are technically capable to get use from a ship 15 years younger than our P31.
                  Except as I've said she's reportedly well known within the RN as having significant material issues (seen comments about the Fire main being rusted through for example), and with difficult to source parts due to age, is she as capable as she was 20 years ago (or rather what funding is needed to get her into that condition) is another question, as mentioned her last refit wasn't to "extend her usage" but just to get her to the end of RN life with little regard to what state she would be in then. From the sounds of it she's not nearly as good as P31 in state (or arguable build, she was as cheap as the RN could get her). As to her replacements, well I'd argue against the idea that fleet carriers should be doing the job (they can do it, but they should be doing something else, somewhere else). As to the Brazilians being happy, bit early for that, the Canadians were happy with their bargain SSK's that took a decade plus of work to get into service, the Australians were happy with their Bay until they had to switch out her power pack, and the Brazilians were happy with the Foch as it sucked their budget dry for little operational value. It might be better to look in 5 years at how much sea time she's down and what she's been used for and then decide whether she was a good buy for the Brazilians or whether a new build though more expensive might have been better (given the deals France has been giving on FREMM's maybe a Mistral on credit would have been better).

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                  • You also, perhaps predominantly, need to look at expectation: do the Brazilians expect a 20yo ship to have X or Y readiness or availability?, And indeed you have to look at why they are buying it - are they buying the O boat in order the consolidate and expand their amphibious warfare capability and undertake high intensity operations , or are they buying it so they can say they have the largest warship in South America?

                    Hasn't India only just decommissioned Hermes/Vikrant, a ship that in 1984 was considered by the RN to be passed the end of its useful life..?

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                    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                      You also, perhaps predominantly, need to look at expectation: do the Brazilians expect a 20yo ship to have X or Y readiness or availability?, And indeed you have to look at why they are buying it - are they buying the O boat in order the consolidate and expand their amphibious warfare capability and undertake high intensity operations , or are they buying it so they can say they have the largest warship in South America?

                      Hasn't India only just decommissioned Hermes/Vikrant, a ship that in 1984 was considered by the RN to be passed the end of its useful life..?
                      In terms of Hermes how much of that was political in her decommissioning with the 3 new hulls coming online, on the other hand a quick look for her Indian Service has her in dock for periods within '93-'95, '99-'01, '03-'04, '09, '11 and '12-'13, what level of operational rate did she have out of dock? Given how limited the amphibious operations of the Brazilians have undertaken I have to wonder if it's a case of willie waving since Foch went out of service.

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                      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        In terms of Hermes how much of that was political in her decommissioning with the 3 new hulls coming online, on the other hand a quick look for her Indian Service has her in dock for periods within '93-'95, '99-'01, '03-'04, '09, '11 and '12-'13, what level of operational rate did she have out of dock? Given how limited the amphibious operations of the Brazilians have undertaken I have to wonder if it's a case of willie waving since Foch went out of service.
                        i think its willy waving.

                        both Ocean and Hermes had had the shit thrashed out of them and were compromised design/builds in the first place - their useful lives at the forefront of high intensity warfighting are/were over, and the only reason you'd buy them is to look like you were able to do this stuff, not to actually be able to do it.

                        right now if you want a hugely capable 4X4 you buy something Japanese - the only reason you'd buy a series one LR Defender is because you want to be seen driving a series one LR Defender...

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                        • Naval Ship Building

                          Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          i think its willy waving.

                          both Ocean and Hermes had had the shit thrashed out of them and were compromised design/builds in the first place - their useful lives at the forefront of high intensity warfighting are/were over, and the only reason you'd buy them is to look like you were able to do this stuff, not to actually be able to do it.

                          right now if you want a hugely capable 4X4 you buy something Japanese - the only reason you'd buy a series one LR Defender is because you want to be seen driving a series one LR Defender...
                          It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement

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                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement
                            And yet it happens more often than we think. The Canadians thought the U class was a great deal, instead they ended up with lemons that ended up with a dead sailor and a decade of dockyard time to get them into limited service. In Brazil's case just look at the Foch and her history in their service (in fact just look at the history of the South America countries for example their "Dreadnought Race"), she's been an utter lemon that has sucked their budget dry for extremely limited value and even if she was 100% operational what exactly is the need for Brazil to support a Carrier?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement
                              With respect, the RN have been doing this for decades. Their main flagships, for the last 3 generations have been designed by politicians, not navies. The navy had to make do with what they were given. CVA01 was cancelled, and Ark Royal and Eagle were converted to operate Phantoms (which were intended for CVA01). Hermes was converted into a helicopter carrier. In time it was decided to mothball Eagle to keep Ark Royal in parts. (sound familiar?).
                              The RN were then offerred the "through deck cruisers" as a compromise to stay in the business of aircraft carriers without actually having any, purely to support proper aircraft carriers in NATO anti submarine patrols. Luckily the Sea Harrier arrived just in time to keep the RN in the fixed wing business.
                              The tale of the Current carriers has been a political one from the outset, designed purely to support the UK aircraft and shipbuilding industry. 2 ships built by every UK dockyard, flying a UK built aircraft, yet unproven in service, with major redesigns mid build, to accomodate a less useful type than one the ship was initially to accomodate, and in smaller numbers than planned, with a smaller air arm than its predecessor, while being a larger ship than its predecessor.
                              Ireland has been down the 2nd hand route often in the history of our Defence Forces. It has always served us better not to do so. Better off opting to take the financial hit to build something modern and suited to our needs, than to save money to buy technology 20 to thirty years behind the times, then end up spending again in the short term to modernise, only for the particular modernised equipment to then no longer be fit for purpose.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                With respect, the RN have been doing this for decades. Their main flagships, for the last 3 generations have been designed by politicians, not navies. The navy had to make do with what they were given. CVA01 was cancelled, and Ark Royal and Eagle were converted to operate Phantoms (which were intended for CVA01). Hermes was converted into a helicopter carrier. In time it was decided to mothball Eagle to keep Ark Royal in parts. (sound familiar?).
                                The RN were then offerred the "through deck cruisers" as a compromise to stay in the business of aircraft carriers without actually having any, purely to support proper aircraft carriers in NATO anti submarine patrols. Luckily the Sea Harrier arrived just in time to keep the RN in the fixed wing business.
                                The tale of the Current carriers has been a political one from the outset, designed purely to support the UK aircraft and shipbuilding industry. 2 ships built by every UK dockyard, flying a UK built aircraft, yet unproven in service, with major redesigns mid build, to accomodate a less useful type than one the ship was initially to accomodate, and in smaller numbers than planned, with a smaller air arm than its predecessor, while being a larger ship than its predecessor.
                                Ireland has been down the 2nd hand route often in the history of our Defence Forces. It has always served us better not to do so. Better off opting to take the financial hit to build something modern and suited to our needs, than to save money to buy technology 20 to thirty years behind the times, then end up spending again in the short term to modernise, only for the particular modernised equipment to then no longer be fit for purpose.
                                Not totally as you say. Political interference yes. Bad leadership yes. Bad decisions yes. However the last British Aircraft to form part of an CV's flight were the Sea Harriers with a variety of Westland's providing rotary requirements. There is no emerging British Aircraft Industry for combat aircraft except bits and pieces which will succumb to Britex. There is no market for what the Brit's are doing except the disposal market. Our acquisition of Corvettes in 1949 and CMS's in 1970's was relevant for their day. There was no starting gun fired on replacements until the Naval Service had a fleet of None. The DOD wanted ships only for Fishery Protection, to be largely financed by the EU, and fitted with GFE from disposed ships.

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