EPV for naval service

[Goldie fish]

There was supposed to be 2 of the Eithne class HPV, due to cost over runs & the shipyard closing it didn't happen.

Not quite as straightforward as that, according to a Book by the Chief Naval Architect, Paddy Martin. The contract was signed for P31, and the tendered price never increased, except in the case of unspecified equipment, which was added to the specification after the contract was signed.
The government never cancelled the order, as such, but failed to confirm the order for the 2nd P30, and a similar sized research vessel, due to "rising costs and lack of resources". It is because of the failure to place this contract that the yard closed, rather than the ship not being built because the yard closed.

But that was a long time ago, in very different economic and political circumstances, and has nothing to do with this thread. The construction of the P30 class is discussed at length elsewhere.

[mutter nutter]

Not one, but 2.
The Irish Times in its report on the approval by Cabinet of the Tender for 3 ships, also indicated that the Cabinet has approved in principle, the option of a second "Enhanced Patrol Vessel", following the construction, delivery and acceptance into service of the first.
I don't have the article in front of me, would appreciate anyone who has if they could quote the details.
The "EPV" will be able to carry up to twenty APCs, 15 to 20 Containers, and hold accomodation for up to 150 troops. It is expected to cost €90m, and will be up to 140m long, according to the Irish Times.

[Goldie fish]

Legend! Cheers for that.

[Te Kaha]

Is this roughly the potential NS replacement programme? If it is - it is very impressive. Knocks the socks off our Project Protector. Two EPVs and six OPV's - great stuff!

Phase 1 from 2008-2012
LÉ Emer (P21) Replaced by the new 130-140m EPV (Lengthened B+V Meko MRV??)
LÉ Aoife (P22) Replaced by a new 85m OPV
LÉ Aisling (P23) Replaced by a new 85m OPV

Phase 2 from 2012-2016
LÉ Eithne (P31) Possible replacement by an additional EPV
LÉ Orla (P41) Possible replacement by an additional 85m OPV
LÉ Ciara (P42) Possible replacement by an additional 85m OPV

[Goldie fish]

Do your maths again there Te Kaha. 2 OPV, option for third. One EPV, option for a second.

[thebig C]

How significant is the fact that the troop- and equipment-carrying capability of the EPV is only 'desirable' rather than 'essential', according to the tender documentation? Sounds like they're either not sure what they want, or they're not very committed, which suggests a final decision has yet to be made?

[Te Kaha]

Cheers mate. I read it again more carefully. Got all excited! It does sound like a lengthen hull Meko reading the tender - not that Im trusting my eyes at this stage of night. Still its a first rate programme. Quite jealous actually.

[Goldie fish]

The tender(details in another thread) seems quite vague about a lot of the specifics, apart from dimensions and powerplant. However the tender itself requests that bidders provide contact details for a client that already use the design they are proposing. This indicates to me an off the shelf plan.

However in spite of the fact that the troop carrying potential of the vessel is "desireable" rather than mandatory merely assists the potential supplier in providing a wider range of designs, to be adapted for our purposes. Remember, apart from NZ, no other Navy uses an EPV.

[DeV]

The Indo has already decided the EPV will have troop/equipment carrying potential, the tender doesn't say that Mr Ralph Riegel!

[hedgehog]

A quick question

as you Sea Dogs are the men and women actually going to live and work in these "Boats"

will you lads have any say in their design

have you been consulted

or is it

there you go you mutinous dogs

[Goldie fish]

Yes. The design of the new ships are the result of a colouring competition held in the Ratings mess.

Seriously though, aspects of the internal layout are taken from improvements made to the older vessels, often suggested in a roundabout way by the crew.
The Wetroom on the P50 class for example, came about through those doing boardings having no place to get into, or dry out their typhoon suits for boarding operations. Maybe they complained, maybe the officers worried about the constant trickle of seawater that led from the crews cabins to the main deck. However you can be sure that features of the design will be incorporated from experiences gained by all the crew.

Another example is the location of the Galley in the P50 class. P51 has it in the wrong place, very inconvenient for ratings mess. P52 changed this and all were happier.

[Goldie fish]

Is it worth mentioning that Royal Schelde's Enforcer 8000 falls well inside the criteria?
Likely contender?

[thebig C]

Is it worth mentioning that Royal Schelde's Enforcer 8000 falls well inside the criteria?
Likely contender?

Funny thing, I was thinking the same thing, but I looked it up and it seems to have too much beam for the Naval Service. Looks like the specs were written for the MEKO MRV.

[Goldie fish]

From Dail Debates:

9. Deputy Ruairí Quinn asked the Minister for Defence his plans for the replacement of Naval Service vessels; the expected timetable for the purchase of the three new vessels; the budget available to his Department for this purpose; if tenders have been sought for the new vessels; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21994/07]

48. Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Defence if the goal of a contract for the three new naval vessels, set to be placed by the start of 2008, will be met on time; and if the proposed budget for defence will provide for this purchase. [22093/07]

Deputy Willie O’Dea: I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 48 together.

The Naval Service provides the maritime element of the Defence Forces and has a general responsibility to meet contingent and actual maritime defence requirements. In the 2000 White Paper on Defence, the Government decided that the Naval Service would be based on an eight-ship flotilla and committed to a modernisation and replacement strategy to maximise the operational capacity of those eight vessels consistent with the roles assigned to the Naval Service.

The White Paper specifically provides that “new vessels will be brought on stream to replace older ones as these fall due for replacement”. Naval Service vessels are replaced when they have come to the end of their useful life, which is normally approximately 30 years. Three ships will fall due for replacement over the next three to five years, namely, LE Emer, commissioned in 1978, LE Aoife, commissioned in 1979 and LE Aisling, commissioned in 1980.

Following a detailed examination of the needs of the Naval Service, a vessel replacement strategy has been put in place to cover the period up to 2012. The vessel replacement strategy combined with a continuous process of refurbishment will ensure that the operational capability of the Naval Service is maintained at a very high level.

Following Government approval in July 2007 to go to tender, notice of a competition for the purchase of replacement vessels for the Naval Service was placed in the Official Journal of the European Union on 24 August 2007. The competition is for the purchase of two offshore patrol vessels, with an option on a third, and one extended patrol vessel, with an option on a second. The options provide an effective value-for-money opportunity, at locked in prices, to provide replacements for Naval Service vessels which will reach the end of their service life in the years immediately following the current replacement programme. The competition uses a restricted procedure which comprises two stages - stage one, a request for proposals, and stage two, an invitation to tender.

The closing date for stage one is 26 October next. Following evaluation of proposals a detailed specification will issue to those invited to participate in stage two. The evaluation of stage one proposals and the preparation of the detailed specification for stage two will be carried out between November 2007 and April 2008. Depending on the quality of the proposals received, a maximum of seven companies will be invited to tender. This invitation to tender is expected to issue in May 2008, with tenders due in July or August. Following detailed tender evaluation, it is intended to award a contract in late 2008.

The decision to proceed with the final award of contract to purchase the vessels will be subject to Government approval and agreement on funding, the full requirement for which will not be known until the tender competition has concluded. However, it is expected that the cost of the three new ships will be of the order of €180 million. The funding arrangements for this will be a matter for further consideration, in consultation with my colleague. the Minister for Finance, in the context of the Estimates process.

It is expected that the vessels will be delivered on a phased basis between 2010 and 2012. The Government is committed to continuous investment in the equipment needs of the Naval Service to enable it to carry out the roles assigned to it. The most recent ships purchased for the Naval Service were the LE Róisín commissioned in 1999 and the LE Niamh commissioned in 2001. The total cost of the two ships was approximately €50 million.


Deputy Brian O’Shea: Is it intended to procure a vessel that will be 120 metres in length, will be able to provide humanitarian relief and troop support in any part of the world and will be designed for fishery protection purposes? In the event that the Department proceeds to procure three ships, is it correct that the other two vessels will be approximately 80 metres in length?

Unfortunately, the Naval Service will need to assume a much greater role in intercepting drugs being smuggled into Ireland. Have factors such as speed and the type of search equipment required to perform this function been taken into consideration in determining the type of naval vessel to be procured?


Deputy Willie O’Dea: The two or possibly three offshore patrol vessels will be 80 metres to 90 metres in length. The extended patrol vessel - we may exercise an option to procure two such vessels - will be between 130 metres and 140 metres. These vessels will be able to perform the tasks to which the Deputy referred, including the provision of humanitarian relief. However, we must work out precisely what functions they will perform.

Drug interdiction, one the functions of the Naval Service, has been taken into account. The prospect of increasingly adverse weather conditions was also considered. Reports from the Meteorological Office and projections for the future indicate that at least one extended vessel would be required to enable the Naval Service to properly perform its functions.
Deputy Jimmy Deenihan: Will the 2008 Estimates make provision for three new vessels? Is the Minister satisfied that the Naval Service is capable of properly policing the coastline with its current complement of ships, especially in terms of drug interception tasks? I understand the Naval Service will only intercept a vessel if directed to do so as part of a security operation and does not actively seek to intercept ships.


Deputy Willie O’Dea: The replacement vessels will be considered as part of the 2008 Estimates. In July this year, the Government authorised me to issue an invitation to tender. This decision is indicative of the Government’s adherence to its promise in the White Paper to maintain an eight-ship flotilla.

Policing the coastline is a difficult job and I wish we had three or four times more ships to perform this task. Unfortunately, large amounts of drugs enter Europe from the Caribbean and further afield, some of which are landed in Ireland, with the bulk being landed in Portugal and Spain. The naval protection systems in the Iberian countries and the United States have not proved effective in halting the flow of drugs. I do not know of a country with a coastline which has sufficient security to guarantee that drugs will not enter the jurisdiction. The Government is committed to maintaining a flotilla of at least eight ships and carrying out a substantial programme of refurbishment to ensure that ships are operational during their lifetime. We are examining the possibility of acquiring larger ships and better arming new ships to ensure they can do their job in this regard.

As the Naval Service intercepts vessels as part of a joint operation with the Garda Síochána and Customs and Excise, it must receive direction. I understand the customs authorities are examining how this approach works in practice. It is possible that a revision of procedures will take place in the near future.

From http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate...ode=H9&Page=11

[X-RayOne]

after the current 3 ships are replaced, which ships are next due for retirement and when?

would the options on the 3rd opv and 2nd epv cover the later retirements (or could they be contingency plans for expanded naval service in a new white paper)?

[pmtts]

The vessel above would be what I would have in mind,or even the soon to be retired RFA "sirs"

The last time I saw one of the RFA "sirs", It was a rusting bucket moored up in Southampton Docks.

Marchwood SMC now use vessels on lease to the MoD. Anvil Point / Hurst Point / Eddystone / Beachyhead / Hartland Point / Longstone.

This is a photo of Anvil Point. All vessels above are of the same design.

[Goldie fish]

after the current 3 ships are replaced, which ships are next due for retirement and when?

would the options on the 3rd opv and 2nd epv cover the later retirements (or could they be contingency plans for expanded naval service in a new white paper)?

I'd like to think Contingency. The Majority of the fleet is pushing on. Orla Eithne and Ciara fall due for replacement regardless of the Next white paper in the Period from 2012-2015. At that point the decision will also be needed to be made, should we replace Eithne with an EPV or an OPV, and do we continue using CPVs, or will the Inshore agencies have it covered themselves(Customs, Fisheries).
Of course the elephant in the corner is still the lack of an ETV in Irish waters. But thats a whole other question.

[X-RayOne]

i didn't think eithne, orla and ciara were due for replacement as early as that.

would be a good idea to exercise the options for basic reasons as common logistics, commonality of design in the fleet, etc.

and probably better to move fleet more towards opv's as a whole and let inshore to other agencies (which seem to be developing in this area anyway). orla and ciara, from what has been said on this board in the past, seem to be a little small for the sea conditions and tasks they have.

by the way what is an etv?

[Goldie fish]

Emergency Towing Vessel. Not to be confused with an EPV, which is an Extended Patrol Vessel, which this thread is about.

[Goldie fish]

Speculation that a ship similar to the NZ Navy MRV Canterbury would be selected for our EPV may be in further doubt following the difficulties encountered, as mentioned in the Project Protector Thread.

[hptmurphy]

Eithne is now twenty three years old believe it or not. and the peacocks are scond hand.

While the fleet looks good on paper its getting very old very fast .

and at the speed the replacement package is taking there will be less ships at sea in fiver years time than currently under the thirty year programme unless some one gets the finger rapidy

[Sea Toby]

As I understand what I have read, I believe Ireland is wishing to buy two OPVS and one EPV now, with options to add one of each later, probably to replace the next round of ships to be decommisioned after the first trio. By the time they are built we are talking about five ships, three now and two more later.

As I read the specifications for the new EPV, it appears a MEKO 200 MRV is what is wanted, not a larger ship such as the Canterbury MRV or 8,000 ton Enforcer. I suspect there will be several bids, all of the shipyards everywhere are crying for more business.

I believe the Irish government is looking in the price range of 100 million Euros for the EPV each and around 40-50 million for an OPV each. Most likely they received several bids for these too.

It will be interesting which ships are acquired and where they will be built. And I suspect within six months to a full year of a commissioning an older ship will be decommissioned to find crew for a new ship. While eight ships is still the goal, during the building process the navy could shrink to seven or even six ships. With mostly a 76 mm gunmount involved, the sensor package should be simple. I doubt whether there will be much intergration problems of the weapons systems some of the other navies have been having with their new software.

[Goldie fish]

What was the purpose of that post, apart from summarising what had already been discussed here and elsewhere on this site? The full Request For proposals is available on this site, with a breakdown of what is required from each ship.
I don't know if the Meko 200MRV is in the picture any more. B&V are now operating under the parentage of ThyssenKrupp Marine systems, and the MRV was aimed at the NZ project, to a customer who already had experience of using the Meko type. The Specification is for an Extended Patrol vessel. Not a sealift ship, however the extra space of the larger EPV could be made available for sealift if required. Forget about The Canterbury type. The Kiwis wanted something completely different to our EPV. They got what they wanted, but jack of all trades is clearly master of none.

The fact is, the average age of the fleet is twenty two years. Roisin, considered our "new" ship is approaching the 10th birthday of its keel laying. If we assume that the 3 proposed vessels are in service by 2014, then it will be time to begin considering replacement for Eithne(2016) and both Peacocks, assuming policy has not changed and the NS maintain a Coastal Patrol capability. As mentioned earlier, the new White paper will also decide the future makeup of the Naval Flotilla.

[hptmurphy]

doubt whether there will be much intergration problems of the weapons systems some of the other navies have been having with their new software

well given we have the system in service for nearly twenty years ...whats your point?

I believe the Irish government is looking in the price range of 100 million Euros for the EPV each and around 40-50 million for an OPV each. Most likely they received several bids for these too.

none of the bids have been cofirmed...

[Sea Toby]

My company I work for wished to upgrade to Vista, with new computers for more efficiency. Unfortunately, doing so kept the IT department busy for months, upgrading old printers, scanners, etc. We went from serial ports to USB 2 almost overnight. And almost all of the second hand software had to be replaced and upgraded. Needless to say, but 25 year old software may not be appropriate for new systems, and vice a versa.

The Australians have had to completely replace its new software and combat data systems with its new submarines. Add several years and another billion dollars. After spending an extra $300 million on its new Seasprite helicopters, and ten years, they could not write the code to operate Penguin missiles. Notice the new government decided to swallow that loss.

The New Zealanders having done very well ordering and getting the ships built on time and within their budget are finding out that Lloyds won't insure and rubber stamp their new ships, as Tenix built them with the wrong insulation. So, several months and added expense will have to spent redoing the insulation. One of their brand new OPVs has to have one of their two new diesels replaced as one was defective. Nobody wants a fire trap! Murphy's Law does happen, what can go wrong will.