EPV for naval service

[Goldie fish]

I'm curious to find how this relates to the Extended Patrol Vessel.

[easyrider]

I'm curious about Lloyds insuring naval vessels.

[A/TEL]

Im told the tender for the new vessels had to leave the island by March 31st so i assume the process has been started now.

[Goldie fish]

Im told the tender for the new vessels had to leave the island by March 31st so i assume the process has been started now.

That must be why I have heard nothing at all about the project lately....

[Sea Toby]

I'm curious about Lloyds insuring naval vessels.

Well they don't. But there is a code for ships, and its Lloyds. You wouldn't want any ship, much less a house, that has not met codes for electrical wiring, plumbling, insulation, human waste, etc., etc. Turns out Tenix used insulation that easily catches fire and at a low temperature. I would think with a warship you would want to use insulation that don't catch fire, and if it did, it would at a higher temperature.

As I recall the British used electrical wiring in their ships during the Falklands war that easily caught fire on HMS Sheffield. The fire spread along her electrical wiring.

For example let us use a simple common electrical appliance such as an electrical iron. While your lamps may have plastic coating for its wires, all irons use a fabric coating. Code, code, code.

[Goldie fish]

Ok, I'm not sure I know what you are talking about now.
Lloyds classification is what I think you are talking about. Also Known as Lloyds register. They have no connection to Lloyds Underwriters. Lloyds underwriters insure ships. LR Insurance for ASME codes is a whole other thing, that has no relation to shipbuilding.
http://www.lr.org/Industries/Marine/...p+services.htm
A ship is classified before delivery. You are either classified A1 or you are not. You cannot rebuild a ship after delivery to be classified. It is impossible to accept delivery of an unclassified ship.

[Goldie fish]

The Dept of Defence has Tendered for a consultancy service to
(a) carry out a detailed examination of the specifications for the Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) and the Extended Patrol Vessel (EPV) which will be issued with Stage 2 Request for Tenders, and to make recommendations regarding their content, layout and appropriateness to class.
(b) provide an Evaluation Report of OPV tenders following Stage 2 of the competition, and
(c) to provide other such advice and assistance as the Minister may require with the project.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Se....aspx?ID=65498

The closing date for Stage 1- Request for Proposals was 26 October 2007. Stage 1 Proposals have been evaluated and a detailed specification will issue to those invited to participate in Stage 2 - Invitation to Tender in May 2008 for the OPVs only, with tenders due for return in early July. Detailed tender evaluation is expected to take place in July/August. A decision on the invitation to tender for the EPV is being deferred until later in the year.

3.1Description of the work to be carried out

The examination of the specification and the subsequent evaluation of tenders will be carried out in the Department of Defence premises in Dublin in consultation with the Department of Defence Civil-Military Project team.

a.Preview

Proof-read the tender specifications which comprise

OPV approx. 200 pages,
EPV approx. 185 pages, and submit comments, observations and recommendations regarding content, layout and appropriateness to class, including

Format

Compliance with international standards

Correct terminology

Current marine practice

Material specification
Surface preparation, coating systems, film thickness
Stability criteria
Testing and trials protocols
Document management
Class notations

b.Develop in conjunction with the Department, an agreed evaluation system, incorporating appropriate structured weighting factors. Should a contractor have an in-house model, which can be modified to suit the requirements, details of the model should be furnished with the bid.

c.Evaluate tenderer’s technical responses under the system agreed at b above in cooperation with the Department including drafting clarification questions to solicit additional information from the ship builders.

d.Produce a final evaluation report consisting of an introduction to the process, defining the objectives of the evaluation, the agreed evaluation procedure, the evaluation matrix, a final order of merit and conclusions.

e.Provide other such advice and assistance as the Minister he may require with the project.

A copy of the specification used for the Naval Vessel L.E. Niamh will be provided to the successful tenderer for reference.

The preview of the OPV specification at a. above must be completed within 2 weeks of the award of contract.

From what I am reading, it seems the OPV tender will be signed first, and the OPV chosen will be based on the Existing LPV, with tenders Due back in July. I'm assuming from that then that any newbuilding of OPVs will not commence until Late Autumn, and the Tenders for the EPV, if at all, will not be sent out until after the OPVs have commenced building.

[A/TEL]

The Dept of Defence has Tendered for a consultancy service to
(a) carry out a detailed examination of the specifications for the Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) and the Extended Patrol Vessel (EPV) which will be issued with Stage 2 Request for Tenders, and to make recommendations regarding their content, layout and appropriateness to class.
(b) provide an Evaluation Report of OPV tenders following Stage 2 of the competition, and
(c) to provide other such advice and assistance as the Minister may require with the project.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Se....aspx?ID=65498




From what I am reading, it seems the OPV tender will be signed first, and the OPV chosen will be based on the Existing LPV, with tenders Due back in July. I'm assuming from that then that any newbuilding of OPVs will not commence until Late Autumn, and the Tenders for the EPV, if at all, will not be sent out until after the OPVs have commenced building.

Looks to me like the government have changed their mind about the EPV.

[Goldie fish]

By changing their mind, are you suggesting that they are going ahead with it, or they are not?

[A/TEL]

By changing their mind, are you suggesting that they are going ahead with it, or they are not?

I'd say they are putting it off as long as possible and then when it comes to the crunch, it will end up like the original AC heli tender, in the bin....

The EPV is the one chance for the NS to take a giant leap forward so if it is cancelled it will be an awful pity.

[Goldie fish]

I'd say they are putting it off as long as possible and then when it comes to the crunch, it will end up like the original AC heli tender, in the bin....

The EPV is the one chance for the NS to take a giant leap forward so if it is cancelled it will be an awful pity.

I disagree.
More likely that the need for an immediate OPV replacement for Emer cannot wait for the extra length of time it would take to Build this Larger ship. Emer, as you well know, is showing every sign of her 30 years in service. However, Aoife and Aisling are slightly different in design and do not seem to be experiencing the same frequent difficulties Emer does.
Instead, Lets get external consultants in to spot any snags we might miss to avoid a repeat of Roisin's difficulties. Lets Build a larger variant of a proven design as soon as possible to Have an effective timely replacement for Emer. Then take our time in Building a vessel which will be expected to replace Aisling, which is not due for retirement until 2010 at the earliest. Modern shipyards are turning out ships in an average of 18 months. Pushing a tender date back a few months only removes possible procurement confusion.

If anything the delay can mean the DoD are willing to do this right, rather than rush a decision, and end up with something that is ultimately unsuitable for its proposed role.

Comparisons to the AC tender are unfair. That went west due to someone in the Government putting his constituency before the legalities of the tender process, and offering offsets to Sikorsky, Via the US Ambassador. If it had gone ahead, EHI and Eurocopter would have been well within their rights to sue the Irish government for an embarassing amount.

[X-RayOne]

i tend to agree...bearing in mind the new financial climate and the government starting to tell us again its time to tighten our belts.

the powers that be won't want to spend any exorberant amounts of money on anything. they are tied into the fleet replacement programme through the white paper but could easily make the argument that the opv's are the priority. the existing ships are close to replacement so that has to be done. the argument could be made that the epv isn't as necessary as the others. newer larger opvs could carry current NS tasks and survive worsening sea conditions. the epv would be put back and depending on how succesful the opvs are a third one would be ordered. a cheaper option but still maintaining fleet numbers and capabilities.

[Goldie fish]

Difficult to see how you could achieve that in the short timescale mentioned. It appears that the EPV tenders will not be offered until later in the year, according to the Consultancy tender mentioned above.
You cannot determine if a new design is good enough 2 months after the contract is signed.
You have to wait for the ship to be built first..

[A/TEL]

I disagree.
More likely that the need for an immediate OPV replacement for Emer cannot wait for the extra length of time it would take to Build this Larger ship. Emer, as you well know, is showing every sign of her 30 years in service. However, Aoife and Aisling are slightly different in design and do not seem to be experiencing the same frequent difficulties Emer does.
Instead, Lets get external consultants in to spot any snags we might miss to avoid a repeat of Roisin's difficulties. Lets Build a larger variant of a proven design as soon as possible to Have an effective timely replacement for Emer. Then take our time in Building a vessel which will be expected to replace Aisling, which is not due for retirement until 2010 at the earliest. Modern shipyards are turning out ships in an average of 18 months. Pushing a tender date back a few months only removes possible procurement confusion.

If anything the delay can mean the DoD are willing to do this right, rather than rush a decision, and end up with something that is ultimately unsuitable for its proposed role.

Comparisons to the AC tender are unfair. That went west due to someone in the Government putting his constituency before the legalities of the tender process, and offering offsets to Sikorsky, Via the US Ambassador. If it had gone ahead, EHI and Eurocopter would have been well within their rights to sue the Irish government for an embarassing amount.

I hope your right, i have to agree with you about Emer, i last served onboard her in 2004 and she had major problems then, Aoife is in good nick for her age alrite and is going strong. I think there may be problems with Aisling however which might cause her to be replaced before Aoife.

If the build for the OPV to replace Emer begins late this year re we talking summer or late 2009 whn it comes into service?

[Goldie fish]

Depends on the Shipyard. Some of the larger ones sub out their work to smaller yards, Particularly the numerous Polish ones, Building the vessel in Modules, which are brought together at the final stages. The Irish Lights Vessel was built in this manner, and I think their delivery was well ahead of schedule.

There is a Boom in shipbuilding at the moment. Yards are not hanging around, keen to put out as many orders as possible while the marker is Vibrant. The Quicker they can cut steel, lay keel, and get the Hull floating, the quicker they can start on another ship.
And this can only work to our advantage.

[Goldie fish]

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence the progress that has been made on the replacement programme for Naval Service vessels including funding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25778/08]

.......In relation to the larger EPV, my Department intends to undertake further analysis of the proposals in relation to the EPV project before the second stage is initiated. Once this has been completed, my Department will review the matter with a view to initiating the second stage of the EPV competition, probably later in the year.

The purchase of the vessels will be subject to Government approval on funding. This matter will be reviewed in detail following the conclusion of the tender competition at which point detailed costings will be available to inform the Government decision. It is expected that the vessels will be delivered on a phased basis between 2010 and 2012. The Government is committed to continuous investment in the equipment needs of the Naval Service to enable it to carry out the roles assigned to it.

[Goldie fish]

Good news, for some.

The Price of Scrap Steel has plummeted 50% in the last month. This has brought with it a drop in the price of Flat Rolled steel, i.e what ships are made of. India, which now controls much of the worlds steel production, under one Mr Mittal, has announced it would drop the price of flat rolled, in view of the Declining market, as well as the surplus production. It reached record price levels in March this year(much like oil in a way).
Likewise in the US, the good times are over:
Not only are steel prices dropping, but shares in steel companies are falling too.




All in all, good news for those who wish to build bigger ships to cope with bigger seas.

[Goldie fish]

The expected Capital defence allocation has been reduced by 5m for 2009, possibly pushing back the decision on the EPV another year. However after that it is still 30m a year, up to 2013.

[hptmurphy]

I wonder how much the projected PVs will slip back given the ministers statement. I have this fear we will end up with two more Roisin types and **** all else.

[easyrider]

$20 million each (so they say).... Sounds like a bargain.



The Indonesian Navy's Makassar class of 4 LPDs designed by Daesun of South Korea. (122mx22mx5m, 7,300 tons standard displacement)

The first two units were built in South Korea and the remaining two at Indonesia's PT PAL shipyard in Surabaya.

The 3rd and 4th units have been modified to act as flag ships with command and control systems, 100mm gun and air defense systems. (wikipedia)

[hptmurphy]

**** me..$20 million..how much extra for a proper lenght bow! ( thats the sharp bit at the front for all those who don't savvy navy speak)

Its hollow..how much for one without the missing middle bits?

[easyrider]

**** me..$20 million..how much extra for a proper lenght bow! ( thats the sharp bit at the front for all those who don't savvy navy speak)

Its hollow..how much for one without the missing middle bits?

I think the bow follows the Ro-Ro ferry look, not very pretty but probably efficient space utilisation. This sort of look (also similar to HMNZS Canterbury)



As for the hollow middle, maybe it's for storage or it's a vehicle deck or that's where the landing craft are stowed?

Anyway, still seems like a lot of ship for $20 million.

[Goldie fish]

And we know how successful canterbury is.... If you buy cheap and cheerful, you just get cheap.

[paul g]

Deputy Willie O’Dea: The two or possibly three offshore patrol vessels will be 80 metres to 90 metres in length. The extended patrol vessel - we may exercise an option to procure two such vessels - will be between 130 metres and 140 metres. These vessels will be able to perform the tasks to which the Deputy referred, including the provision of humanitarian relief. However, we must work out precisely what functions they will perform.


i would have said that the delay in the EPV is due to the fact that they're still not entirely sure what they want the ships to actually be yet. most of the speculation on this board has been on a transport type vessel like the Canterbury or the indonesian one above, however, they may opt for something more like the National Security Cutter the USCG has.

[easyrider]

My guess is that this is the sort of thing that they're dreaming about:



(Danish Absalon class)

A military/naval ro-ro is probably more realistic price-wise for us though, especially the way things are at the moment.

I take the point about Canterbury's problems, but I think the fundamental problem there is that they picked the wrong hull shape to start with. (It's based on a ferry that runs between the Isle of Man and the North of England, a very different environment to the seas around New Zealand, I would have thought.)