EPV for naval service

[Goldie fish]

I don't think ro-ro is practical, given the sea states you would be experiencing. The access ramp, or ramps, if provided would add to the ships complexity and maintenance schedule, as they wouldnt be in regular use. Better off if you intend carrying "cargo" to opt for lift on lift off, and include a proper crane on the vessel, of 80 T capacity or more.

Given that the vessel is termed "EXTENDED PATROL VESSEL" rather than Multi Role Vessel, it is quite clear from the RFP that the ship will have extra space by accident, rather than by design, and if you have that space, then you may as well make use of it. Most of our overseas Ops only require one vehicle drop, at the start of the mission. After that, all you bring are replacements, when required, but every resupply will make use of a TEU. Every Diving or survey op will use a TEU sized box,Field hospital, again TEU sized box.. any other use, would see a TEU, rather than a vehicle. So Flat decks, and easy crane access is the order of the day. It is a bad use of space to store TEUs below deck, on trailers.

[Goldie fish]

A reminder why a Larger type of PV is required... Waves are getting bigger.

Lots of data at the following links.
http://www.knmi.nl/onderzk/oceano/wa...40/license.cgi

http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/ne...oyReadings.htm

Do you know how high a 17.2m wave is?

[ackack]

Do you know how high a 17.2m wave is?

Oh oh oh oh me me me..............is it 17.2M????????

[Duffer]

about 1720 cms or maybe 17200mm I guess

[Goldie fish]

Retards.

[DeV]

A reminder why a Larger type of PV is required... Waves are getting bigger.

Lots of data at the following links.
http://www.knmi.nl/onderzk/oceano/wa...40/license.cgi

http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/ne...oyReadings.htm

Do you know how high a 17.2m wave is?

Almost 16 times higher than it is at that buoy now!

Mid Altlantic at 5pm today it was around 10m

Ever watch the "Deadliest Catch" ? Wave height at 6pm today was around 5/6 metres.

[easyrider]

There's an interesting discussion of the relationship between ship length and sea-keeping ability in the book 'Atlantic Escorts - Ships, Weapons & Tactics in World War II', by David K. Brown, a former Deputy Chief Naval Architect at the Admiralty.

Another link to the latest buoy reports: http://www.met.ie/latest/buoy.asp

[Sea Toby]

As far as the New Zealand Navy's Canterbury, Janes summed up the Coles Report very well. The Coles Report found more wrong with the Ministry of
Defence's managing of the project than what is wrong with the ship.

A NZ$20 million make good program, adding doors to the alcoves and adding proper forward ballast above sea level should correct most of the ship's problems including her bow slamming, not to mention propeller emergence and submergence. This make good program shouldn't take much more than a few weeks to accomplish.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/na...1024_1_n.shtml

Considering the cost of the other ships offered, even with the added expense of the make good program, she was bought at a wonderful price. She has proved her usefulness as a sea lift ship during four different exercises this year.

For the price of around US$110 million, New Zealand has finally acquired a ship capable of lifting their army company abroad.

[Goldie fish]

SHould have some answers about the progress of the project in the Dail tomorrow.

[Goldie fish]

Latest news.

In relation to the larger EPV, the Department intends to undertake further analysis of the proposals received, following Stage 1, before the second stage is initiated. As with the OPVs, any decision to award a contract for the purchase of an EPV must be approved by the Government.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate...de=H19&Page=26

[Goldie fish]

Some new Images have appeared recently on the ThyssenKrupp Website. Some may find them interesting.

Sentinel


Guardian

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems’ patrol boats of the GUARDIAN
and SENTINEL class are also based on the MEKO® concept. This makes them particularly versatile and flexible in anti-piracy and terrorism roles, for surveillance and for patrol duties.

Sea and airspace surveillance, troop and equipment transportation, humanitarian and combat missions – naval ships built by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems are prepared for any kind of deployment – because the MEKO® technology permits the installation and removal of equipment modules without major interference with the ship’s structure. To this end, modules and devices are installed or removed through purpose built assembly openings. The system saves time, lowers costs and allows corvettes and frigates to be fitted for the most diverse missions.

The groups’ innovative approach, new concepts and developments are also evident in the design and construction of special purpose naval ships. The mine countermeasure vessels are particularly manoeuvrable and their “sandwich hull concept” makes them extremely impervious to water. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems’ versatile multirole ships are specially designed for the quick transportation of people and equipment, including during humanitarian missions.

[paul g]

i thought that both these designs are more sutiable for the OPV.

[hptmurphy]

Specs dimmensions etc, look a bit tidy.

If the buiders who builder the OPVs were to work in tandem we caould almost build a ship to our own spec as happen with Roisin and Niamh.

Very free hand within the NS to get to this point

[thebig C]

Hey gang

Well, since the indications are that the EPV is being re-appraised, can we assume that anything along the lines of the NZ MRV or even a Frigate type design like a Meko 200 are out of reach?

With that in mind, a stretched OPV might suit our requirements ( and more realistically Dept of Finance beancounters) better.

Would something like this be suitable, 100m OPV, with additional capabilities, from VT. Forgive me if it has been posted before:

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/fsc.htm (Scroll right to the end of this article)

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibiti...c-concep.shtml

Ok, I know we probably won't need the MCM abilities or the hanger. But, using the basic hull, and striping away the Heli facilities etc, could be a nice platform?? Also, with a crew of only 76 it wouldn't be too demanding of resources.

C

[Goldie fish]

i thought that both these designs are more sutiable for the OPV.

Perhaps, however it was the quote that followed that interested me. The proposed specs for the EPV allow quite a lot of leeway. The OPV spec does not specify a helideck, the EPV does.
In the absence of dimensions for the above types, I have to speculate.
Also, I'm tired of being the only one to reply to the opv thread :redface:

[paul g]

The Guardian design is the favourite for the south african OPV Project Biro programme, and both are around 80 metres so they're more sutiable for the OPV. However, while no requirement for helicopters, the OPV is specified to be able to operate curent and future UAVs, so there should be some sort of area on the back to facilitate that.

Big C, actually I think that the FSC the brits are looking at might be the sort of thing that the Naval service eventually buy, and given the need for the need to carry ISO containers/TEU's in the tender, don't necessarily rule out MCM capabilities.

i think they got lots of proposals back for the EPV, and are currently assessing what they want the ship to be. A lot of the speculation here has been on a transport vessel ala New Zealand, but i think that perhaps it will be more of a patrol vessel, something with the abilty to take part in UN blockade missions, and anti-piracy patrols.

[Goldie fish]

Yeah, my understanding is they intend the EPV to be a Patrol vessel first, with redundant capability for blue/green operations, rather than a Blue/green ship that can do patrols when not being used for army stuff.
However I'd say priority is to secure the OPVs first.

[paul g]

Yeah, my understanding is they intend the EPV to be a Patrol vessel first, with redundant capability for blue/green operations, rather than a Blue/green ship that can do patrols when not being used for army stuff.
However I'd say priority is to secure the OPVs first.

True, still there is 5 million in the estimates for new ships, a down payment.

They've really got no choice in the matter, the P-21 class is old and wearing out, and if anything they've left it a bit too long to secure these new ships.

Again the European pressure is mounting on them, every other state is facing economic difficulties, in that situation, they have no choice but to renew the navy.

Politically i think they'll opt for a european design, and a modified version of the Meko Guardian might fit the bill.

[Goldie fish]

I'd say no matter what designs are out there, you could link them back to a european company in some way.
In related news, there was questions asked in the Dail last week about our plans to extend the territorial limits to the continental shelf.

3. Deputy Lucinda Creighton asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he will lodge a claim with the United Nations for an extension in the State’s share of the continental shelf; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15996/09]

Deputy Micheál Martin: Ireland claims continental shelf extending beyond the standard 200 mile entitlement to both the west and south of the country. Under international law these claims must be examined by the UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. For the purposes of our claims, we have divided the extended shelf into three sectors.

The first sector is to the south west of the country near the Porcupine Abyssal Plain, an area which is approximately half the size of the State’s land territory and which was the subject of Ireland’s first submission to the Commission. The Commission issued recommendations in 2007. These confirmed Ireland’s entitlement in this sector and set out details of where the new outer limit there should be established. The area involved is approximately 39,000 sq km, which is a very satisfactory outcome. The Government made an order under the Continental Shelf Act 1968 on 31 March last which formally establishes the area concerned as Irish continental shelf.

The second claim is in the Celtic Sea, where there are unresolved boundary issues with the UK, France and Spain. The four countries made a joint submission for this 80,000 sq km area in 2006. The Commission last month confirmed this claim and negotiations on its division between the four will begin in due course.

Ireland also claims part of the Hatton-Rockall area of the north-east Atlantic, which extends up to 500 nautical miles from the coast. There is an agreed Ireland-UK boundary here, but it is not accepted by Iceland or the Færoe Islands, which make their own claims. The four have met regularly since 2001 in an effort to resolve the overlapping claims issue, but to date have been unable to reach agreement. In view of the ten year deadline for the making of submissions to the Commission, which for Ireland expires in May, Ireland lodged its own claim for this area last month. It is not possible at this stage to say when the Commission will examine it, but the four countries concerned intend to keep the matter under regular review.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: The Rockall dispute in particular is of significant importance for the country because potential lucrative and valuable oil and gas reserves may well be available for exploration in the future. What is being done at Government level to fight for and make the case for Ireland at UN level in this regard? It is reasonably widely accepted that the Irish case is stronger than that of Iceland or Denmark. It is, therefore, essential that we put forward a strong challenge. The talks, which had been ongoing since 2001, have now broken down. This presents an opportunity to have the situation resolved once and for all within the United Nations. Will the Minister inform the House what he and the Government have been doing to ensure we see a successful outcome for Ireland?


Deputy Micheál Martin: I just did that in my reply and outlined the three areas in which the Department has been involved. With regard to the Porcupine Abyssal Plain, we have now achieved a successful outcome as a result of our submission to the Commission. The second claim relates to the Rockall area of the north-east Atlantic. We are not talking about Rockall itself, as the rock is of no relevance to this at all. Our concern is the area around it.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am aware of that.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We have now made our submission to the Commission on that. There is a timeframe involved. We had been hoping to reach agreement, but that was impossible. The ten year timeframe for making a submission would have been up in May, so we have made our submission now.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: The Department got its submission in at the 11th hour.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We endeavoured to get agreement first. We have an agreed Ireland-UK boundary, but the Færoe Islands and Iceland have not accepted that. There have been regular meetings in the intervening period between the four countries to try to resolve the issue, but that has not been possible. It is now a matter for the Commission. We are pursuing the issue and trying to get the correct outcome from Ireland’s perspective.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: What is the timeframe for that? How long does the Minister anticipate it will take?


Deputy Michael D. Higgins: The issue is around 25 years, since the time of Charles Haughey.


Deputy Micheál Martin: We cannot give a timeframe with regard to when the Commission will examine the issue. We have a good record with regard to the manner in which we have pursued the issues and the successes we have had over the years.


Deputy Lucinda Creighton: This is the key issue of the three.


Deputy Micheál Martin: They are all important. All sorts of claims can be made about economic potential, but that all remains to be determined. All of the issues are important. There is a process to be followed and if a mutually satisfactory agreement cannot be reached the best way to pursue the issue is through the UN Commission. That is the route we have taken.

Clear as mud, but it does strengthen the case for larger vessels, with longer endurance, capable of operating in rougher seas.

[paul g]

Actually quite a few people are unaware of the potential for this to become a serious problem, for example there has been a war of words between Canada and Denemark over who owns Hans island.

[DeV]

True, still there is 5 million in the estimates for new ships, a down payment.

That would be the down payment on 1 vessel!

Roisin & Niamh each cost around € 22 million

[paul g]

Looks like its a modified rosin and a.n.other German shipbuilder for the OPV competition

http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/no...s/article.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufactu...1418234-1.html

http://www.geoffreycox.co.uk/search/article.php?id=600

If its not Thyssen, then perhaps it will be the Fassmer OPV, which Argentina and columbia have also ordered

http://www.armada.cl/p4_rumbo_manana...104100044.html

This is what happens when mrs G and the kids go to Italy to visit her parents

[Goldie fish]

That would be the down payment on 1 vessel!

How do you know?

Roisin & Niamh each cost around € 22 million

£

[thebig C]

Looks like its a modified rosin and a.n.other German shipbuilder for the OPV competition

http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/no...s/article.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufactu...1418234-1.html

http://www.geoffreycox.co.uk/search/article.php?id=600

If its not Thyssen, then perhaps it will be the Fassmer OPV, which Argentina and columbia have also ordered

http://www.armada.cl/p4_rumbo_manana...104100044.html

This is what happens when mrs G and the kids go to Italy to visit her parents

Not sure I am mad on either of those designs! I would have pefered something like an A-100/Sigma OPV.

Do you think we will eventually hear the names of everybody who submitted tenders?

Also, I would hav thought that inthese straightened financal circumstances the Govt might look further afield to get better value. Germany and the UK are not exactly low cost labour economies!

C

[thebig C]

The Guardian design is the favourite for the south african OPV Project Biro programme, and both are around 80 metres so they're more sutiable for the OPV. However, while no requirement for helicopters, the OPV is specified to be able to operate curent and future UAVs, so there should be some sort of area on the back to facilitate that.

Big C, actually I think that the FSC the brits are looking at might be the sort of thing that the Naval service eventually buy, and given the need for the need to carry ISO containers/TEU's in the tender, don't necessarily rule out MCM capabilities.

i think they got lots of proposals back for the EPV, and are currently assessing what they want the ship to be. A lot of the speculation here has been on a transport vessel ala New Zealand, but i think that perhaps it will be more of a patrol vessel, something with the abilty to take part in UN blockade missions, and anti-piracy patrols.

Yes we should pay close attention to the FSC programme. Even the C1 and C2 categories.Here is another proposal from our old friends DML :

DML Frigate Concept (FC65)
At DSEi 2005 in September, DML Group unveiled a new frigate design concept known as FC65. The FC65 is a high speed, long range, surface combatant, intended to offer good capability in both offensive and defensive roles. Approaching 150 metres in length and with a displacement of 6,600 tonnes loaded, the vessel is powered by twin MT30 gas turbines, with four large waterjets that allow it to reach its speed capability of 35 knots (65 km/h) while being sufficiently efficient to provide over 7,000 nautical miles (13,000 km) endurance. Two Merlin helicopters can be hangared, and the flight deck can accommodate large rotorcraft.

The FC65 features a versatile vertical launch system for both offensive and defensive stores, and has a Mk45 5-inch gun to provide shore bombardment support. Special Forces are catered for in the flexible internal cargo deck aft. This can be re-configured for military or non-military tasks. At 40 metres long and 12 metres wide, the space is large enough to allow transportation of a wide range of vehicles, stores, boats, personnel or other cargo.

The design deliberately focuses on rapid adaptability, and can be rapidly reconfigured for military and non-military roles and duties ranging from benign and constabulary to Task Group command and Land Attack/ASW functions. The platform has been optimised to allow sustained global operations with high endurance, and has the ability both to undertake a wide range of tasks unsupported, and to command task group operations.

Obviously, its waaaay over armed for us....we can but dream However, features such as utilising the area underneath the Heli deck could be the way to go for the NS requirement.

Sorry, having trouble posting pics!

C