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  1. #826
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I have a strong belief that the WP is trying to be all things to all people but as it says itself everything is dependant on the country's financial situation.

    There is absolutely threats out there, but in the most case the military threat is remote. The biggest single threat to this State is economic!

    For that reason alone you won't see any Government borrowing huge amounts of money to pay for anything. When Garda stations were closed, local A&E's were shut down - those left open didn't really get an extra resources. Look at the waiting lists or Tusla not having enough social workers (and Ireland being cited by the UN over human rights).

    The reality is that any extra money will be prioritised to health, education, justice, housing, social welfare. Any money left over after that Defence may get priority.

    The WP talks about multi-annual budgets, medium-long term purchasing plans etc. All that is already done (there is room for improvement yes). They are to look at alternative and pooling & sharing etc.

    Before I look at equipment, the WP states that Baldonnel, Haulbowline, McKee and the Curragh all need essential capital projects that cannot be met from existing funding.

    What does the WP say is required? (figures are my estimates based on what has been spend in the past)
    an APC LEP / replacement programme (min €100m for a replacement programme)
    Armoured Logistics Vehicles (?)
    CASA replacement - consideration to larger more multi-role aircraft (min €40m)
    Cessna replacement - 3 larger ISTAR aircraft (probably around the €5-10m mark)
    Eithne replacement (min €100+ million)
    CPV replacement (say €60 million)
    Possibly Learjet replacement (say €10 million)

    Then the WP says if extra funding becomes available they will look at more APCs, more LTAVs, army AD capabilities, an air intercept capability and more NS vessels.

    Most of what is required is actually required (with no extra funding) is needed within the next 10 years or so.

    Add that up, the 2016 estimate for defensive equipment is € 21m, in the good times it hit a high of €37m for about 4 years.

    By the way a lot of other things are paid for out of that budget too that aren't necessarily headline grabbers (eg ammo for ops & training), etc.

    To get to the absolute min level of capability that is required (not desired) will require an absolute min of at least a guaranteed 52% increase in funding (over the current level) on defensive equipment for the next 10 years. Realistically that wouldn't deliver more capable APCs, larger maritime patrol aircraft, extensive armed MRV or extensive armed CPVs, that is just to maintain current capabilities (with the add of a larger EPV (with little capacity).

    That doesn't take account of inflation (my figures are based on in some cases what something cost in the 90s), etc.

  2. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    True but it isn't to sabre rattle us
    Not just at the moment Dev, but one thing we can't have is no ability to control our area of responsibility, we run the risk of becoming another Belgium....
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  4. #828
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I chose the San Georgio class because she is doing specifically what our next step should be if we are serious in having a vessel with Blue / Green Capability. Could move up to a battalion plus its equipment, while being able to operate two Merlin Size helos and has a very capable medical facility on board. Probably a little beyond what we can do, but is certainly where we should be going.

    Not specifically these which are up for retirement with an improved class on the way within the next few years. The floating dock and LCVPs appeal to me for Blue Green ops. If you can house 30 medium tanks, that about equal to the armoured mechanised element we deploy.

    At 8000 or so tonnes, shes not huge.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 5th February 2016 at 22:28.
    Time for another break I think......

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  6. #829
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    She can carry 350 troops not up to 850

  7. #830
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    She can carry 350 troops not up to 850
    Average Bn deployment is 500 people...hence the 'up to'!

    Bns don't deploy en masse but in 'chalk's leaving some people in situ while the fresh troops arrive. Normally a 'chalk' at a time. This hip would allow a 'chalk; plus its equipment, namely the armour to be deployed en masse.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 5th February 2016 at 22:38.
    Time for another break I think......

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  9. #831
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Average Bn deployment is 500 people...hence the 'up to'!

    Bns don't deploy en masse but in 'chalk's leaving some people in situ while the fresh troops arrive. Normally a 'chalk' at a time. This hip would allow a 'chalk; plus its equipment, namely the armour to be deployed en masse.
    Would be very handy for an initial deployment for sure. Get the bones of your Battalion and all their kit to the destination at one time, potentially on very short notice, and have the remainder fly in once everything is there. If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship. One other point, didn't Enda say he wanted a "hospital ship" at one point in the past? Surely this could tick a lot of boxes, and given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  11. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Would be very handy for an initial deployment for sure. Get the bones of your Battalion and all their kit to the destination at one time, potentially on very short notice, and have the remainder fly in once everything is there. If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship. One other point, didn't Enda say he wanted a "hospital ship" at one point in the past? Surely this could tick a lot of boxes, and given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
    Well hell, there's always those 4 orphan Merlins from the RAF that aren't being respec'd to the Mk 2, what's the UK's plans with them? Also what was the price per unit for them? A quick look on Wiki says near $300 million back in the 80's, was that per unit or for the 3, has a price for the Algerian one been announced?

  12. #833
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    If only we had some Merlins to fill those landing spots on the deck of currently fantasy ship.

    For merlins..insert three AW139s!!!

    nd given the Naval Services recent use in Rescue ops in the Med, surely a ship like this would make a lot more sense.
    Guess what the Italians have been using them for!!!!......Hence my suggestion.
    Time for another break I think......

  13. #834
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    One Merlin = 28 Troops
    One AW139 = 10 Troops (?)

    Plus, is there a naval version of the AW139?
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  14. #835
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    How about the RSS Endurance class:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endura..._platform_dock

    Some similarities with existing Naval equipment, e.g. 76MM, Kelvin Hughes radar and even better - a small crew of 65

    About €125 million, which includes 2x 23m Landing Craft + 2x 13m Landing Craft, a decent defensive suite including air search radar & mistrals.

    And it sort of looks like a big patrol vessel, rather than a mini aircraft carrier.

    Last edited by pym; 6th February 2016 at 00:10.

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  16. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    How about the RSS Endurance class:

    Some similarities with existing Naval equipment, e.g. 76MM, Kelvin Hughes radar and even better - a small crew of 65

    About €125 million, which includes 2x 23m Landing Craft + 2x 13m Landing Craft, a decent defensive suite including air search radar & mistrals.

    And it sort of looks like a big patrol vessel, rather than a mini aircraft carrier.
    I think the Singaporeans have put together amazingly good value/good ROI ships, the Endurance class and the Formidable Frigates for example, but the Endurance's are only 15 knot ships, so I doubt even if things went nuts in the Government that she'd meet the EPV requirements.

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  18. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I think the Singaporeans have put together amazingly good value/good ROI ships, the Endurance class and the Formidable Frigates for example, but the Endurance's are only 15 knot ships, so I doubt even if things went nuts in the Government that she'd meet the EPV requirements.
    Yes I was surprised to see the engines were more or less in the same power class as the P60's - which I guess partly accounts for the speed constraint.

    After a bit more reading, I see the Thai's use 120 crew on their vessel - so I guess the quoted price reflects some significant cost cutting.

    Any thoughts on the likelihood of the NS looking beyond Europe for a builder?

  19. #838
    Sergeant madmark's Avatar
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    http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...form-dock-7000

    im no way navy minded but would somthing like the meet the need
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

  20. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Yes I was surprised to see the engines were more or less in the same power class as the P60's - which I guess partly accounts for the speed constraint.

    After a bit more reading, I see the Thai's use 120 crew on their vessel - so I guess the quoted price reflects some significant cost cutting.

    Any thoughts on the likelihood of the NS looking beyond Europe for a builder?
    In terms of the difference between the crew sizes, I wonder is that any reflection on training levels? Wasn't the Thai light Harrier Carrier pretty much called the Royal barge? Honestly with the scale of ship building in the Asian yards, if they gave us a good price why shouldn't we? I mean the South Korean yards can build the largest most heavily armed Burke class variant for themselves, and the RFA hulls for the UK so why not?

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  22. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmark View Post
    http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...form-dock-7000

    im no way navy minded but would somthing like the meet the need
    Nice ship but again it has the problem that the Cobh dockyard would have to pay for a new dock or the Navy would need to go elsewhere, both doable but how much costs are involved and is it really the best spend for 1 hull?

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  24. #841
    Sergeant madmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Nice ship but again it has the problem that the Cobh dockyard would have to pay for a new dock or the Navy would need to go elsewhere, both doable but how much costs are involved and is it really the best spend for 1 hull?
    as iv said im no way ship minded so thanks for informing me
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

  25. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmark View Post
    as iv said im no way ship minded so thanks for informing me
    It's a consideration (don't have a clue how much of one) but the current graving dock that the Navy uses has a beam of about 21m width so it's a restriction unless the navy goes elsewhere/invests in a floating dock.

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  27. #843
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    Rss endurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I think the Singaporeans have put together amazingly good value/good ROI ships, the Endurance class and the Formidable Frigates for example, but the Endurance's are only 15 knot ships, so I doubt even if things went nuts in the Government that she'd meet the EPV requirements.
    A ship worth studying, and maybe interaction with the Singapore Navy to see what effects her freeboard ( distance loaded waterline to her main watertight deck) has between Light load and Full load. Her BHP is quite low but her hull should manage 24knots. She has a shallow draft at 5m but that is a function of her wide beam at 21m. A case for sending a naval team ( engineer. electrical, ordnance, operational) for a wee trip on board? I am interested in this one's format and Logs potential.

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  29. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    A ship worth studying, and maybe interaction with the Singapore Navy to see what effects her freeboard ( distance loaded waterline to her main watertight deck) has between Light load and Full load. Her BHP is quite low but her hull should manage 24knots. She has a shallow draft at 5m but that is a function of her wide beam at 21m. A case for sending a naval team ( engineer. electrical, ordnance, operational) for a wee trip on board? I am interested in this one's format and Logs potential.
    Hey if she could be uprated and there was interest I think it would be an epic ship and give us huge increases in potential operations. And since one was built for the Thai's the design is still current. From memory the Singaporean's are looking at modifying the design for use with the F 35B, so maybe they would end up doing the design/mod work for us?

  30. #845
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    Some useful images for scale:






    As is, I doubt it's exactly the vessel the NS would want - for one thing, having looked at the accommodation it's nowhere near as comfortable as the P50/P60's!

    Could ditch the pictured landing craft for larger RIBS capable of over the horizon patrol ops?

    It does seem to have a lot going for it, especially the small crewing requirements.

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  32. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    One Merlin = 28 Troops
    One AW139 = 10 Troops (?)

    Plus, is there a naval version of the AW139?
    I our case, a can of Crown Gray matt finish B&Q

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  34. #847
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Little problem with any thing built in the Singapore.

    They build for persons of their own stature so would be a little tight on space and how efficient a redesign would be is questionable.

    I think we are looking at the right type of concept in these type of vessels, would be interested how the NS would respond.

    Pyms piccies do help prove layout.
    Time for another break I think......

  35. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Little problem with any thing built in the Singapore.

    They build for persons of their own stature so would be a little tight on space and how efficient a redesign would be is questionable.

    I think we are looking at the right type of concept in these type of vessels, would be interested how the NS would respond.

    Pyms piccies do help prove layout.
    That's a good point, wasn't that one of the issues those three Corvette/light frigates that BAE built and then tried flogging off when the customer refused them?

    Is there anything in current build in Europe that matches something like the Endurance?

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  37. #849
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    http://samsayswhut.blogspot.ie/2015/...t-with-me.html

    The link shows part of the accommodation - including triple deck bunks. Undoubtedly if it's transporting a few hundred troops once in a while, their sleeping arrangements will have to be, eh, pretty austere.

    But I'm guessing the 65-70 bods on board for its usual patrol role would want something more akin to the P60's.

    edit: since the EPV/MRV is mooted to have landing facilities, but not specifically a hanger for heli ops - I guess that's the crew accom sorted!
    Last edited by pym; 6th February 2016 at 16:57.

  38. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Well hell, there's always those 4 orphan Merlins from the RAF that aren't being respec'd to the Mk 2, what's the UK's plans with them? Also what was the price per unit for them? A quick look on Wiki says near $300 million back in the 80's, was that per unit or for the 3, has a price for the Algerian one been announced?
    Here's a video of the Algerian version https://youtu.be/scUNuY2Z2H8?t=21s https://youtu.be/scUNuY2Z2H8?t=21s

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