EPV for naval service

[ancientmariner]

I like your overall reasoning and it is just possible that a diluted interpretation of the WP could be used when implementing Maritime capability. Suffice it to say, a Naval asset sent into harms way must be able to defend itself against ALL possible treats, otherwise you are preparing to flush over 100m E of assets and personnel down the drain

[Galloglass]

"I doubt the Swift has the range or space suitable for invading anything, but the Isle of Man.".......Victor

Well we have to start somewhere! Why not the Isle of Man? A Gaelic speaking self-ruling island in the Irish sea. It is neither a part of the UK nor the EU and possibly has a graving dock large enough for the new NS aquisitions. (Smiley)

[ODIN]

"Under British law, the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. However, the UK takes care of its external and defence affairs, and retains paramount power to legislate for the island."

Might be asking for a load of trouble there Galloglass, but lead from the front man, I'll follow you, I swear :D

[pym]

Thread drift potential, but regarding ship building I've read about commercial standards (Lloyds?) and military STANAG standards.

What are the differences in the two and do they arise from the materials used, extra complexity etc?

[DeV]

"Our GDP is not far off Denmark's GDP (Ireland is approx 250 BN Denmark is 335)

not far off? That's 25% of a difference!

Could the phrase "flexible and adaptive capability" be stretched to mean limited war fighting self protection capability?
Maybe..
"For a wide range of maritime tasks" Hmm wide range of tasks sounds interesting but note the inclusion of the word "maritime". I think this is key, it does not say "Naval tasks" it uses a civilian word. The Irish Ferries ship Oscar Wilde provides a wide range of Maritime tasks with a freight carrying capacity. I think the WP reveals very very little about the future shape or capability of Eithne's replacement.

The last part (for operations) both at home and overseas is also interesting as it clearly states that Eithne's replacement will be deployed abroad.

Bottom line is that the new vessel could be something like Absalon but it's very unlikely. My opinion is that the next WP paper update (due in 3 years time) will shed more light on this, until then all this guesswork is just pleasant reading that helps pass the time :-)

Well to me we have an idea of the size of the vessel that the NS wants from the RFP for the EPV (that wanted other roles included - vaguely but strongly hinted at).

We won't know detail until a RFP/RFT is issued.

As you say though it will be flexible and deployable.

Thread drift potential, but regarding ship building I've read about commercial standards (Lloyds?) and military STANAG standards.

What are the differences in the two and do they arise from the materials used, extra complexity etc?

Not sure if it is called STANAG or just naval rules.

It is much higher cost to build to naval rules (rather than commercial).

http://www.lr.org/en/_images/213-43071_Naval_safety_assurance_0314_pages.pdf

Page 13 gives some of the areas that are looked at (generally naval rules require more redundancy, structural integrity, more damage control options etc

[Banner]

My final tuppence worth on this> I personally believe that the desire within the overall Defence community and certainly within the Naval Service itself is to affect a gradual increase in capability.

This is hinted at several times throughout the WP. It mentions in respect of the CPV’s that they will play a key role in keeping Irelands access to International Sea lanes open and have “counter mine and counter IED capability”. That to me in the reserved and understated language of the WP screams mine sweepers. Of course it being a WP and open to interpretation I could be totally wrong but I wouldn’t be totally surprised IF (cant stress the word “IF” enough!) the following transpires.

CPV’s replaced with mine sweepers with ability to locate and destroy underwater mines and IED.s Apart from role specific sensors and weapons that specifically pertain to mine sweeping the Vessels will have standard current weapons fit of 76mm, 20mm 12.7mm etc.

As regards the MRV (Eithne’s replacement) it could easily be some sort of “Absalon light”. Why do I think this is a possibility? Well if anyone read the Fianna Fail manifesto it says that Eithne should be replaced with a “Frigate Type vessel capable of carrying a helicopter”. FF have been in power for 60 years of the states existence and have been broadly supportive of the current Gov’s defence and foreign policy. FF absolutely has access to officials in the DoD and defence forces proper and it can be reasonably assumed would have its finger close enough to the pulse of thought on current replacement strategies and priorities. As Ancientmariner has said there is no point in forking out 120Million Euro on a ship that cannot defend itself from ATGW’s or worse still 1980’s era technology on a milita controlled former naval asset of a failed state.

(Anyone remember the damage an exocet can do ? how many missile capable tin pot African navies (think Libya) have serious firepower rusting in harbor that potentially could fall into the hands of terrorists? Imagine the embarrassment of the flagship of the Irish Navy potentially being sunk (or crippled with serious loss of life) on a humanitarian mission to Tragicistan. Not good at all, imagine the self righteous clamour at home for an inquiry and for heads to roll etc )

Hmm not worth thinking about. Far far better to have built in a certain amount of redundancy and future proofing.

So my guess is Eithne’s replacement will have an Air Search Radar, improved fire control system, 76MM main gun SAM’s (of some sort) and possibly CIWS of some shape or variety. Electronic Warefare suite might also be included. All of that could be “Sold” to joe public as self defence capability and very necessary.

None of this is specifically laid out in the WP so as not to alienate the homespun jumper wearing crusty brigade so close to an election. But the WP is a very clever piece of work. It’s the first piece of Govt paper to say, we are going to do X but keep an eye out for our WP review n 3 years time when we will go into a lot more detail on what X actually means. AS I say this is all speculation but the great thing is that if we are all alive in a few years time we will see exactly what we get and what transpires. My money is on (despite the very real issues raised by DEV) a marked increase in self defence capability and force projection (in terms of literally being able to put boots on the ground and support them)

[DeV]

Here's the RFP for the OPVs and EPVs

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_docs.asp?PID=22156&LID=22156

[Herald]

Not wishing to rain on anyones parade lads, but comparing Irelands GDP to any other European Country is a futile exercise.
Far better to compare GNP.
For example, Microsofts holding company (Microsoft Round Island One) May report revenue of €10 billion in Ireland, but I'd be surprised if more than €200m of that relates to activity (other than shuffling paper) in country.

Similarly with Facebook, Google, Apple, Cisco etc.

[expat01]

Which actually puts us far closer to Denmark: About 180 billion compared to 230 for GNP, as opposed to 232 compared to 333 GDP.
2013 figures.

[Sparky42]

New Zealand has been bolstering her Naval Power to the point she is regarded as a useful small Naval power in the world leagues on Naval Strengths. Her recent 2013 GDP was 188bn USD. Ireland on the other hand is regarded as a Policing Coastguard just short of bottom tier Naval powers due to our low projection capability and weapon fits. Our GDP in 2013 was 232bn USD and in 2014 was 245.9bn USD. It is therefore a mind set as to where money is spent and whether we wish to enhance our national status and capability . 2% of current GDP would be close to 5000m USD, even over a 10 year programme the Defence Forces in general could be brought up to modern combat standards.

The Absalon was deployed to the East African Pirate patrols and proved herself to be one of the most capable units while leading the Combined Task Force off the Horn of Africa in 2008.

Hold on a second, NZ's Naval strength hasn't much improved in two decades. The two Anzacs are only half the order they were thinking of (and only with a joint order with Australia) and are getting an upgrade now so most likely will be in service for another 10-15 years (after nearly 20 already) so compared to most modern Eurofrigate designs are small and only going to get more outclassed, that and nearly a 30 year old small supply ship (which most likely doesn't meet international standards now), other than that they have two step sisters of ours with issues with hull weight due to icing, 4 inshores that if I remember they were thinking of reducing due to manpower and the troubled history of the Canterbury, honestly (and not meaning to piss off any Kiwi) I don't see how it ranks as a useful small Naval power, hell Singapore's strength for example for outclasses it IMO. They also have issues as to whether they can replace the Anzacs given the costs of modern firgates (same as I wonder how about the political will/budget to replace their P3's when they come due)

[expat01]

And a surprising but interesting thing to remember: Ireland is richer than NZ, has more people and a faster growing population. I think the WP is written in terms that show both these facts are dawning.

[expat01]

I know. I just want my hover frigate.

[ancientmariner]

In terms of Naval Power NZ has ships armed both defensively and offensively (Missiles and ship launched Torpedoes). Look at RNZN- Meet the Fleet. Those that write Naval Power tables have classed NZ as a small NAVY. We are classed otherwise.

[Medsailor]

In terms of Naval Power NZ has ships armed both defensively and offensively (Missiles and ship launched Torpedoes). Look at RNZN- Meet the Fleet. Those that write Naval Power tables have classed NZ as a small NAVY. We are classed otherwise.

Fully agree. More importantly, the RNZN has the ability to conduct operations in all three dimensions, surface, air and sub-surface albeit with some limitations. That makes them a force capable of exerting military influence on a variety of scenarios.

[Galloglass]

Fully agree. More importantly, the RNZN has the ability to conduct operations in all three dimensions, surface, air and sub-surface albeit with some limitations. That makes them a force capable of exerting military influence on a variety of scenarios.

Difficult to work in three dimensions only Medsailor........There's never enough time (smiley)