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  1. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Cost may become subordinate to proper Defence. Norway has a population close to ours and runs a navy of Frigates, Submarines, MCM's, Patrol boats, with an establishment of almost 3000.
    Norway also has a GDP which is nearly twice ours and has history that lends itself to their policies on defence spending, and even then the Frigates have manning issues (with only 1 being full time operational I think), the Sub's are small, two decades old and won't be replaced for another decade so again limited.

  2. #1152
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    I think the only way we could justify a floating dock is if it were contracted out to repair/service other ships, apart from the NS .
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  4. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Cost may become subordinate to proper Defence. Norway has a population close to ours and runs a navy of Frigates, Submarines, MCM's, Patrol boats, with an establishment of almost 3000.
    Norway also has a strike rate of 1 in 4 when it drill a oil well

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  6. #1154
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    Drydocking

    The Necessity, or otherwise, of a Floating Dock

    I’m sure this will come as a big disappointment to all the floating dock fetishists out there. Who knew there were so many?

    The manufacturer's published breadth for the Crossover Logistic is 19.6 metres. She will fit, albeit tenderly, into the Verolme dry-dock.

    For ancientmariner in particular, thanks for the information on that. My understanding is that Damen use something called ‘the enlarged ship concept’, devised at the university of Delft and, applied in this particular case as an elongated stiletto bow. I have no understanding of the mathematics, but intuitively I accept the idea that the design could help lateral stability and reduce slamming in rough conditions. I have no idea how to even begin forming an opinion regarding the implications for roll and yaw, particularly at low speeds, but perhaps you might run your rule across it.

    While we’re on the subject I might also ask, those of you familiar with Froude and other assorted dark arts, to take a quick look at an idea for a hybrid Emergency Towing/Extended Patrol Vessel, using another unorthodox design, over on the ETV thread.

    Concrete

    The enthusiasm for the laying down and digging up of concrete as expressed by morpheus and ropebag gladdens the heart! Almost to the point where I’m genuinely disappointed that it won’t be necessary just yet. However you will find my thoughts on Lebensraum for an expanding Naval Service over on the Drydocking thread.
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    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 18th April 2016 at 00:11. Reason: Making sense of comments between posting and publication
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  7. #1155
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    Vessel Capabilities




    It's very easy to become focused on what an empowering asset a vessel like this would be for the Naval Service, the Defence Forces, and for the State. In the broader context, I believe it's just as important to highlight the amount of good that a vessel like this could do in the world, and the even greater amount of good that it could enable to be done.

    Humanitarian and disaster relief are obvious initial examples, and sadly at present, there is no shortage of such work to be done on European shores. Besides mass SAR operations, this capable and flexible vessel could easily find itself tasked for critical emergency aid delivery, as a hospital ship, in flooding relief tasks, earthquake rescue support, or for the purposes of civilian or military evacuation.

    Then there are the roles that the Naval Service would now be able to undertake, even to lead, where it has previously lacked capability. Anti-piracy patrols, perhaps in conjunction with Finnish air assets and Swedish Marines, would be an example.

    Beyond that, the Navy would be in a position to assist the Army, the Air Corps, and the Gardaí in the fulfilment of their own international engagement missions. Between the delivery and collection of Army ISTAR assets for annual exercises in Scandinavia or Germany, the MRV could carry out an annual trade and goodwill tour of the Baltic.

    While carrying a Mechanised Company Group, the 139 Logistic would also have enough capacity to carry Air Corps assets, for exercises in conjunction with our closest peacekeeping partners. These capabilities would allow the establishment of regular bilateral exercises home and away and, of course, speed the timely and safe deployment of joint Irish-Finnish peacekeeping contingents.

    All of this is, of course, in addition to greatly enhancing the Navy's ability to carry out its existing mandate to protect, defend, and support the State and its interests, including the Irish EEZ.

    I believe that, once we acquire such a vessel, we’ll wonder how we ever managed without one. The need for, and utility of, a second will be so obvious as to be irresistible. (A Nine ship Navy anyone?) I’m very confident that within two decades we’ll be operating a fleet of four such vessels.

    Defensive Suite

    Threats in a humanitarian, peacekeeping, or peace enforcement context are more likely to be external, rather than internal, to any situation we are engaging with. The most likely modes of attack are well known, and to this end, we absolutely need a combined air/surface Close In Weapons System. A method of medium range air defence and a competent means of dealing with improvised underwater attack would follow very closely in priority, partly because of the less than ideal success probability of any CIWS system, and partly for reasons probably better not discussed in public. A more potent main gun would be desirable to provide covering fire for peacekeepers finding themselves in extremis.

    The Exocets, ASROC, and Tomahawks can wait for the mid-life upgrades.

    As somewhere to begin I’d suggest taking a look at a stripped down version of the South African Valour Class frigate's suite. It may be dated by this stage but, it would probably be good value for money and, would be more than capable of dealing with the threats most likely to be encountered on any peacekeeping or peace enforcement mission.

    An expanded but not necessarily updated (too expensive!) version of the Swedish Visby Corvette set could be a good fit. A kink here is that the AA system integration was never completed, so that’s something that the Navy would need to find a lot more about before considering it seriously. The Army and Air Corps already use the land based version of Saab’s Giraffe radar so that’s a big plus.

    The common feature in both options is the South African firm Denel, manufacturer of the Valour’s CIWS and its Umkhonto SAM missiles, also supplier of same to the Finnish Navy. They are apparently keen, competent, and competitively priced. They are also looking to expand their European customer base. If only there was a suitable dockyard, somewhere in the Cork area looking for an owner, from where they could service their European clients...

    Sealift Capacity

    From previously shown calculations the Crossover 139L is the smallest possible vessel capable of carrying the equipment for a full EU ISTAR group. There’s about 10 lane meters of space left on the flight deck for a sneaky smoking area. Every other nook and cranny is jammed, the vehicle decks, the hangar; everything.

    I’ve left about 120 sleeping places in case there’s no secure airport or port for peacekeeping troops to disembark, so under crush conditions they can at least hot bunk for 48 hours. A third in the bunks, a third in the mess, and a third in the smoking area. They’ll all be stark raving mad by the time they get off!

    Any information that can help me refine or correct these calculations would, of course, be appreciated.

    Death Ray CIWS

    X-RayOne, it’s like you were reading my mind. Doubtless you’re aware of the next generation hypersonic, swarming, self-targeting, multiple independently targeted large warhead anti-shipping missiles. Yes, a death ray CIWS would be ideal, the next best thing currently available is allegedly the RIM-116 rolling airframe missile, or the Orlikon system proffered by JetJock. In my considered view, the best CIWS currently available is a Type 45 destroyer between you and any hostiles. The Denel 35mm twin is, not a preferable but, an acceptable choice for our purposes between now and the mid-life upgrades.


    Warship Point Defence Thread
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 21st April 2016 at 21:26. Reason: Link to Warship Point Defence Thread
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

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  9. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Norway also has a strike rate of 1 in 4 when it drill a oil well
    We are not impoverished if we build E50m ships but our problem is forgetting to make them more viable as Naval ships. If as some have said Norway has twice our GDP, then why not have an Navy with at least half the Norwegian capability, including Kongsberg missile systems used by more than 60 Navies including possibly USN. I have said before any ship tasked to an enforcement role MUST be Good To Go. Buying hulls and engines, and then putting a gun on is very much Coastguard minus these days.

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  11. #1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We are not impoverished if we build E50m ships but our problem is forgetting to make them more viable as Naval ships. If as some have said Norway has twice our GDP, then why not have an Navy with at least half the Norwegian capability, including Kongsberg missile systems used by more than 60 Navies including possibly USN. I have said before any ship tasked to an enforcement role MUST be Good To Go. Buying hulls and engines, and then putting a gun on is very much Coastguard minus these days.
    Because they spend 7.2 billion dollars on defence (and have done for decades), even if we went straight to 2% of GDP we couldn't match that and would need to spread it over all three services (and spend a huge chunk building up components that they don't have to), nor do we have an internal arms industry that can make use of such spending. I also don't get the point of mentioning the Anti Ship missile system to be honest (for various reasons from the USN not mounting any on most of the Burkes (the NSM is being touted for the LCS as the LCS is virtually toothless and a disaster of a project)) to the fact that there's plenty more suitable options to invest additional monies in (for example the Holland class doesn't mount ASM's, the future Batches of Rivers aren't planned to).

    Unless/Until we have a truly radical change in this nations foreign policy, at most we should be arguing for ships with defensive systems (CAMM/ESSM/RAM) that can protect the ship, we aren't going to be sinking any other nations warships.

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  13. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    A floating graving dock is an asset, once you allow for mooring area, pontoon depth( the bottom bit on which the blocks and ship rests), a decent entry draft better than 6metres. You also need a trained crew and dockmaster. It would need to come with cranes, power, and sanitary facilities. Typically a 5000 Lifting capacity on about 132mX 35m would cost anywhere between Euro 5m/10m depending on age etc. However like getting a dog for a pet there is a lot of minding required and it needs a good safe home.
    Plus a lot of personnel to do the work

  14. #1159
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    The systems you mention have some of their genises in countering the drubbing received by naval and supply ships in San Carlos bay. The development is ongoing but all are anti-air in concept to cover up to 500 sq. miles or using PI, R squared, about a range of 12.5nm. Defending one's own ship needs a defence response capability in ALL the threat environments at sea. There are many systems out there designed for our size of vessel. All navies may arm ships selectively but when you are mainly of a sole type you have to think globally, on maybe a smaller scale, BUT make some attempt to meet Somali type threats to shipping.

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  16. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The systems you mention have some of their genises in countering the drubbing received by naval and supply ships in San Carlos bay. The development is ongoing but all are anti-air in concept to cover up to 500 sq. miles or using PI, R squared, about a range of 12.5nm. Defending one's own ship needs a defence response capability in ALL the threat environments at sea. There are many systems out there designed for our size of vessel. All navies may arm ships selectively but when you are mainly of a sole type you have to think globally, on maybe a smaller scale, BUT make some attempt to meet Somali type threats to shipping.
    There's a fairly huge gulf between what a Somali threat to a ship on patrol and a peer combat situation of the Falklands though (ie RPG's against a full up air attack), let alone the Sub threats and the defensive system for each is different and considering the massive jump in price difference the question does have to be asked as to what we are planning to do and what threats we are going to face. Fitting a CWIS system like RAM/Phalanx and multiple sub 40mm weapons is a different bracket from ESSM/CAMM with the needed VLS/Radar systems in terms of demands/costs/hull design/supports.

  17. #1161
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    In any scenario where conflict is present or where a conflict zone is entered by a grey painted ship, it is likely to become a target or an adversary. Our predicament is we can only successfully conclude operations against unarmed trawlers or a compliant enemy. We Must gear up to a minimum of self defence in all dimensions. If we expend up to 100m on an MRV, we should be prepared to expend at least another 35m on a defence system and a similar amount over the life of the vessel to maintain operability. We can of course continue on a one boat one gun policy and keep our ships away from potentially hot missions. As I said previously we are heading for population growth with a growing GDP/GNP. We are also a member of the EU with implied Defence obligations. How should that develop or do we just supply office staff and do a few rescue tasks?
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 17th April 2016 at 14:31.

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  19. #1162
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    Agreed. We now have a big boy economy and are beginning to flirt with big boy responsibilities. Continuing to pretend we are Lichtenstein isn't going to fly forever. That means naval ships that can act the part if pressed, a radar system that can at least detect the tupolevs when they are running silent off the west coast in the path of commercial airliners and then, later, we might think about the army.

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  21. #1163
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    We are not out of the PIGS woods by any measure yet. No way is any big public money going on expensive weaponry whilst services/housing are in dire straits and there is a rising clamour for pay rises in the public funded sector.

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  23. #1164
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    Still in trouble? Probably, yes. Now look carefully at the rest of the pigs. My point is that the Irish economy of 2016 is a very different beast to that of any period in our history. This is not Dev's 1959 hellhole, nor the flim flam game of the 1970s. We are nowhere near the 1980s either. People need to get their heads around the fact that economically, Ireland matters. A medium small deal becoming a medium deal. Our military mindset is based on a folk memory of being a pretend country which no longer applies.

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  25. #1165
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    But we are no where near 2000-2008 either

  26. #1166
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    Foreign policy needs dictate defence capacity/capability and rightly so in a democracy.

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  28. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    But we are no where near 2000-2008 either
    Which itself was a neverland fantasy which everyone could see had to end as early as 2000. I was certainly glad to sell the house in 2003 and move. I'd have made more money for another couple of years, but it was blindingly obvious what was going to happen and I'd have been gambling. But at the worst after 2008, the country was fundamentally better than at any time before the 1990s, and likely always will be. It's a new game.

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  30. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Which itself was a neverland fantasy which everyone could see had to end as early as 2000. I was certainly glad to sell the house in 2003 and move. I'd have made more money for another couple of years, but it was blindingly obvious what was going to happen and I'd have been gambling. But at the worst after 2008, the country was fundamentally better than at any time before the 1990s, and likely always will be. It's a new game.
    While true there are other factors to consider, while ancientmariner is right for example on the expect profile of the population that also brings issues with increased demands from both the Health and Education sectors, and the post 08 rules that the Eurozone has adopted also mean tight margins for some time in terms of budgets, given the fracture state of politics right now, I can't see there being much chance of significant budget increases for much of a decade for defence. While the UK has made an art of "Fitted for but not With" for the RN, I think it's something we will end up going for, whatever the EPV ends up being it's most likely going to be the largest capital outlay for the DF in the next 10 years, we might have to accept something that will need extra funds post launch in order to meet "hot" missions.

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  32. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    While true there are other factors to consider, while ancientmariner is right for example on the expect profile of the population that also brings issues with increased demands from both the Health and Education sectors, and the post 08 rules that the Eurozone has adopted also mean tight margins for some time in terms of budgets, given the fracture state of politics right now, I can't see there being much chance of significant budget increases for much of a decade for defence. While the UK has made an art of "Fitted for but not With" for the RN, I think it's something we will end up going for, whatever the EPV ends up being it's most likely going to be the largest capital outlay for the DF in the next 10 years, we might have to accept something that will need extra funds post launch in order to meet "hot" missions.
    put it this way, in my local hospital there is a 3-4 week wait to go the fracture clinic

  33. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    put it this way, in my local hospital there is a 3-4 week wait to go the fracture clinic
    How much of that is due to union work practices. Heard a surdgen conplain on the radio one day that he gets more eye operations done
    on a Saturday morning in the Eye and Ear with a private team. then working with the public team over three days.
    Last edited by sofa; 18th April 2016 at 01:04.

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  35. #1171
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    Priorities will always be with the people in power though, and today those priorities are a cardiac unit for waterford, a CF clinic for Beaumont and 0ne million terrabit broadband for de peeple a' rooral R'scomman.
    Next week Mattie Mcgrath will probably look for goodies, like a port for south tipp or something, so as not to be out done by the other independents .

    For the military, it will always be a case of as little as possible. Although within the DF there is an increasing campaign of winning Hearts and minds, with the publicity over the Med mission, the recent recruits thing on RTE etc, we don't have the received memory of what happened in WWII that the UK or Norwegians have.

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  37. #1172
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    Exactly right, spare money is always used as political ground bait. If we had a Defence Committee containing some expertise in the field that could evaluate total threats, obligations, and responses to sporadic crises of domestic and nearby origin then we could build a Defence System, including the Navy to meet most obligations. We are totally internalised in our politics with NO real interest in the edifice of the State. There is a degree of invisibility, lack of pride, and a concept that Defence Forces are part of the Social Services in time of want or weather stress. Right now , it is my opinion, that we are entering a politically fragile era that could go either way, mostly engendered by a growing number of parliamentary demagogues who claim to have " unfinished business"

  38. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Exactly right, spare money is always used as political ground bait. If we had a Defence Committee containing some expertise in the field that could evaluate total threats, obligations, and responses to sporadic crises of domestic and nearby origin then we could build a Defence System, including the Navy to meet most obligations. We are totally internalised in our politics with NO real interest in the edifice of the State. There is a degree of invisibility, lack of pride, and a concept that Defence Forces are part of the Social Services in time of want or weather stress. Right now , it is my opinion, that we are entering a politically fragile era that could go either way, mostly engendered by a growing number of parliamentary demagogues who claim to have " unfinished business"

    our problem in Ireland with defence funding, is as a result of this - defence is "supposedly" funded based on a number of factors, one of the biggest being our current and future threat levels, but lets look at the threat level:

    Govt is told by intelligence services that the national and indeed international threat to ireland is low.
    Govt then produces whitepaper on defence with this threat level in mind
    Govt then looks at funding and decides defence needs small amounts as threat level is low
    Defence remains seriously undervalued and underfunded to a point where its probably the lowest in europe.

    Yet the REAL crux is this:
    Our intelligence agencies are woeful, not to denigrate the work that they do, but we have such a limited intel capability.
    The detectable threat - that which we CAN identify - will be that found amongst a very limited coverage of all threats that a thinly spread under resourced organisation can find.
    Our agencies are stretched thin and can only scratch the surface or concentrate on one or two threats at a time.

    So yes the govt is told that the threat to Ireland IS low, so they rub their hands together and opt out of capital acquisitions like an EPV for the navy, or cut it down so much that its just effectively a slightly longer OPV instead of a far more capable, intel gathering, semi war fighting, transport and heli capable, state asset.

    the clever thing to do is to fund the intel services more, increase cyber security and detection, then show a truer risk assessment to cabinet, thus leading to increased defence expenditure, IF necessary.

    That and parish pump politics!
    Last edited by morpheus; 19th April 2016 at 11:03.
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  39. #1174
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    Is it totally naive to hope that as the national, and european, expectation of nescessary defence expenditure moves towards 2% that the first programmes to be funded would be effect multipliers for existing assets and resources?

    ie A modest sea lift/air lift capability.
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

  40. #1175
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    IMHO pay restoration and deletion of the PRD/USC extractions is probably a more relevant issue for DF members than the acquisition of big money weapon systems. That said having a few more quid in the bank wont be of much use if you find yourself exposed to hostiles at the sharp end.

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