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  • From the outset, sealift was only ever a secondary function. The primary role was always going to be EEZ patrol.
    Why would we not support combat systems? In the mid 80s we went from crew served main weapons to completely self contained and remotely operated systems, aimed by EOS.
    In the 1950s, the NS were equipped with Anti Submarine warships that would have been on a par with a USN Perry class or RN Type 23 today.
    We shouldn't rule out a capability just because we never had it before.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
      From the outset, sealift was only ever a secondary function. The primary role was always going to be EEZ patrol.
      Why would we not support combat systems? In the mid 80s we went from crew served main weapons to completely self contained and remotely operated systems, aimed by EOS.
      In the 1950s, the NS were equipped with Anti Submarine warships that would have been on a par with a USN Perry class or RN Type 23 today.
      We shouldn't rule out a capability just because we never had it before.
      Too much money wasted on systems we would never us in a Frigate and modern sub hunting requires dedicated helos.

      If we do decide to ho down the antisubmarine type frigate we need to look at helicopters and how we would operate them.

      What ever we do eventually settle on I think the ability to integrate with foreign units and to be deployed out of home waters should be a primary consideration and FP should become a secondary role.The NS role would change big time and would have to move out from under the armies control.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
        From the outset, sealift was only ever a secondary function. The primary role was always going to be EEZ patrol.
        Why would we not support combat systems? In the mid 80s we went from crew served main weapons to completely self contained and remotely operated systems, aimed by EOS.
        In the 1950s, the NS were equipped with Anti Submarine warships that would have been on a par with a USN Perry class or RN Type 23 today.
        We shouldn't rule out a capability just because we never had it before.
        So you think we need to go from a basic 76mm to Aster 15 VLS systems? How much investment would the Base need for maintenance/training/storage of the missiles? How much support work would have to be done abroad (radar sets, VLS system) or would we generate all that for one ship as well? Do we strip out the Anti-ship missile systems, or the Torpedo tubes or build that up as well? Again if a bare bones Absalon is "too pricey" an all up FREMM is beyond even looking at.

        As to the Corvettes, no disrespect to them or their crews, but I hardly think 3 WW2 survivors (of an emergency plan no less) could be considered peer level anti submarine ships compared to other 1950's designs, I mean look at how quickly the RN and others paid off the Flowers and replaced them with more capable Frigates (River class onwards) In terms of the 50's onwards for the Royal Navy you had the Type 12's and 14's or the Leander's from '59 onwards. To me if you were to try to compare a Flower to a modern class you'd have something like the light Frigates, certainly nothing like the 23's or the Perry's.
        Last edited by Sparky42; 7 February 2016, 19:59.

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        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          Too much money wasted on systems we would never us in a Frigate and modern sub hunting requires dedicated helos.

          If we do decide to ho down the antisubmarine type frigate we need to look at helicopters and how we would operate them.

          What ever we do eventually settle on I think the ability to integrate with foreign units and to be deployed out of home waters should be a primary consideration and FP should become a secondary role.The NS role would change big time and would have to move out from under the armies control.
          If we were to give wait to international operations and integration with foreign forces, honestly something like a micro LPD/LHD would make more sense to me honestly. I mean if you look at the Nordic Battlegroup it would have an organic sea lift that none of the others provide. Amphibs have proven themselves multi functional from rescue operations in the med to pirate patrols off Africa to disaster relief operations globally.

          As we all agree there's no design out there that checks all the boxes, and we still have the whole issue of what exactly we want (as shown just in this thread), but a full up top of the line Frigate isn't it, IMO.

          Comment


          • Missiles would probably be stored where all our other missiles are stored when not in use. It isn't a huge issue.
            To me it is not that Absalon is too pricey, it is just too big. Both ships are huge.

            Seen alongside the WW2 Cruiser HMS Belfast for scale.

            Alongside Columbian OPV, which are similar in size to our OPVs.


            The NS has proved, time and again that they are up to whatever challenge is put to them. As HPT well knows, Naval Air Ops did not fail because of the NS. Naval aviation, in whatever form must be part of the future NS and it must be under complete control of the NS.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • You are aware that the FREMM's are just as big right? So what you think we should just stick with OPV's like the Holland? If we go any larger we aren't going to get something that's a modern design in service with other nations unless we jump to something around the 6000 ton as far as I can see. What's in the 4000 ton bracket that could meet are requirements? Maybe the planned light units that the Italians/French/RN have penciled in, but they are still on the drawing board from memory and won't be built in the next 5 years, the Italian PPA's for example http://www.occar.int/327

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              • As you say we are not going to get a 6000T OPV. A 6000T Frigate would make more economic sense. (Bang for Buck etc) Not that either are suitable. The Holland are quite a package, and fit most of our dimension requirements, but not all.

                But the real question is, should we wait around for someone to design something that suits our requirements to the letter, or should we buy new naval capability, off the shelf, from Blohm & Voss, or Fincantieri?
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • given the profusion of 'proper' amphibious landing ships in Europe and 'proper' fighty frigates in Europe , i see no point whatsoever in buying something that pretends to be one or the other but doesn't do the job as well.

                  if proper fighty escorts are required then someone will send a Horizon or a Type 23/26 - unless its proposed that an NS vessel built along the OPV+/Corvette/Light Frigate line is going to match those in combat power then they will add nothing to the group and will infact just get in the way. if something much more MRV is being touted, then unless it can unload a Mech Inf Coy and all its logs at a beach/completely broken port with no facilities, then the contributing countries will just say no thanks and use an Albion class LPD type-thing.

                  a vessel that can unload a Mech Inf Coy at a location with no port facilities looks, and is, very different to vessel that can do 30kts+ while fighting surface, sub-surface and air threats in monsterous sea states. trying to get one vessel to do both tasks is begging for a vessel that will be crap at both.

                  quite simply, i do not see any Irish government deciding to either buy, and certainly not use, a proper fighty ship, or a proper amphibious ship.

                  imv, talk of either is a red herring - a far better approach would be to extend the current competancies with an OPV+: a constabulary ship, larger than the current OPV's for both sea-keeping and endurance, a weapons fit suited to the task with a self-defence, anti-missile/anti-drone capability, accomodation space for non-combatant evacuations, fast, armed daughter craft and a GBFO flight deck both for operating as part of a multi-national group and for its own UAV's.

                  Comment


                  • On sub-hunting:
                    - if you are having to go into that business (as in you are looking at serious deterrent your going to need 1 than 1 vessel and have helos. Your also going to need a means to engage them. Realistically you need a frigate / a ASW heli platform (ie probably at least min 3 operational helos on it.

                    Deployment outside of "home" waters (much of the North Atlantic), in a lot of cases means that your going have have to use the triple lock and probably fund it ourselves. Your also going to have to rotate crews to it (and support it) as there will be only 1 vessel.

                    Like it or not, FP and ops in "home waters" are what the NS will send 90% of their time doing. A new MRV may reduce that but it will still be required.

                    Bear in mind that the likes of a LPD is designed to be travelling loaded, not empty as an large OPV (look at HNZS Canturbury).

                    Absalon and the Holland classes actually aren't far off the EPV dims (the Holland class are smaller and Absalon is within them (for length and beam)).

                    Comment


                    • An Irish contingent doesn't necessarily have to brought to a SPOD in the AO. It would be a lot more flexible if it could but.... land the kit at a nearby friendly country with a operable port and drive into the AO (or a suitable vessel that landed the first wave could pick them up from there). It wouldn't be ideal but it is doable. But if it was a land locked AO it would land outside the AO anyway.

                      Put a load of MOWAGs and LTAVs on deck and you could well have issues with sea water.

                      Of course if you want the stores carrying capability of say the Holland class, then your talking about filling the hanger with a couple of vehicles (max) and covering the flight deck with TEUs. And you still need port facilities.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                        imv, talk of either is a red herring - a far better approach would be to extend the current competancies with an OPV+: a constabulary ship, larger than the current OPV's for both sea-keeping and endurance, a weapons fit suited to the task with a self-defence, anti-missile/anti-drone capability, accomodation space for non-combatant evacuations, fast, armed daughter craft and a GBFO flight deck both for operating as part of a multi-national group and for its own UAV's.
                        That leaves us looking squarely at Sparky's Holland Class. Although probably chopping the integrated mast off to save money. They run for €134 Million with that very bling mast.

                        In my own head, I thought a one off flagship MRV would be acceptable. It would offer a massive capability leap for the NS & DF as a whole.

                        But if we're deciding on an OPV+, I'd like to think we could get two of the things - but sure as hell not at that price.
                        Last edited by pym; 8 February 2016, 01:25.

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                        • Holland class is slower and doesn't have the legs of the P60 class

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                          • EPV Options

                            Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            given the profusion of 'proper' amphibious landing ships in Europe and 'proper' fighty frigates in Europe , i see no point whatsoever in buying something that pretends to be one or the other but doesn't do the job as well.

                            if proper fighty escorts are required then someone will send a Horizon or a Type 23/26 - unless its proposed that an NS vessel built along the OPV+/Corvette/Light Frigate line is going to match those in combat power then they will add nothing to the group and will infact just get in the way. if something much more MRV is being touted, then unless it can unload a Mech Inf Coy and all its logs at a beach/completely broken port with no facilities, then the contributing countries will just say no thanks and use an Albion class LPD type-thing.

                            a vessel that can unload a Mech Inf Coy at a location with no port facilities looks, and is, very different to vessel that can do 30kts+ while fighting surface, sub-surface and air threats in monsterous sea states. trying to get one vessel to do both tasks is begging for a vessel that will be crap at both.

                            quite simply, i do not see any Irish government deciding to either buy, and certainly not use, a proper fighty ship, or a proper amphibious ship.

                            imv, talk of either is a red herring - a far better approach would be to extend the current competancies with an OPV+: a constabulary ship, larger than the current OPV's for both sea-keeping and endurance, a weapons fit suited to the task with a self-defence, anti-missile/anti-drone capability, accomodation space for non-combatant evacuations, fast, armed daughter craft and a GBFO flight deck both for operating as part of a multi-national group and for its own UAV's.
                            Our choices are a request for proposals from building yards in which we outline our General requirements as an amendable list but including basic requirements such as size, speed, endurance, replenishment facilities, and ballast system to substitute for absent loads (Light Ship) OR buy nearly new from a class already in production but also pay attention to deadweight/unloaded problems. I dont like the term Constabulary ship as it may curtail level of armament and make it useless to act in Naval Groups or actions.Ropebag's last proposal has some merit.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              On sub-hunting:
                              - if you are having to go into that business (as in you are looking at serious deterrent your going to need 1 than 1 vessel and have helos. Your also going to need a means to engage them. Realistically you need a frigate / a ASW heli platform (ie probably at least min 3 operational helos on it.

                              Deployment outside of "home" waters (much of the North Atlantic), in a lot of cases means that your going have have to use the triple lock and probably fund it ourselves. Your also going to have to rotate crews to it (and support it) as there will be only 1 vessel.

                              Like it or not, FP and ops in "home waters" are what the NS will send 90% of their time doing. A new MRV may reduce that but it will still be required.

                              Bear in mind that the likes of a LPD is designed to be travelling loaded, not empty as an large OPV (look at HNZS Canturbury).

                              Absalon and the Holland classes actually aren't far off the EPV dims (the Holland class are smaller and Absalon is within them (for length and beam)).
                              Like it or not, FP and ops in "home waters" are what the NS will send 90% of their time doing. A new MRV may reduce that but it will still be required.
                              Don't need a frigate to do that, huge overkill.

                              Deployment outside of "home" waters (much of the North Atlantic), in a lot of cases means that your going have have to use the triple lock and probably fund it ourselves. Your also going to have to rotate crews to it (and support it) as there will be only 1 vessel.
                              It would indeed be a game changer ,but without making a huge leap of faith the NS will be doing the same job in 20 years time, with the same ships.

                              So..OPVs it is.....We don't need to compete with other European navies to justify the existence of the NS, still have plenty of work to do at home, with a couple more OPVs
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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