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  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    Agreed, however it is interesting what they managed to do with the dimensions.
    True, but if it has accommodation like the Endurance then you could see how they could squeeze in a bit more, also while it has a helipad, does it actually have a hanger capability or is it just the platform?

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    • Just the Platform (Unless they crane the helis into the Hold amidships....)
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • just wondering why 16 Pajeros using 80/85 lane meters. As i said the Absalon carries almost a reconnaissance Battalion. The original proposition for the MRV was a Coy?

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        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          just wondering why 16 Pajeros using 80/85 lane meters. As i said the Absalon carries almost a reconnaissance Battalion. The original proposition for the MRV was a Coy?
          A Irish Mech Coy would only be around 130 lane metres (but that is just the bearbones to last maybe 24 hours, no plant for building a camp etc). That is mainly MOWAGs. That is not allowing any space between vehicles.

          The EUBG Irish ISTAR TG contingent require min 333 lane metres (plus 20 TEUs). That includes MOWAGs, LTAVs etc. That is not allowing any space between vehicles.

          When the main part of the Irish contingent (up to an Inf Gp (basically an Inf Bn minus) withdrew from KFOR they brought back up to 70 vehicles (estimated to be up to 450 lane metres by DoD). That included 9 MOWAGs. Plus 40 TEUs.
          Last edited by DeV; 10 February 2016, 21:18.

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          • In a supported operation and being part of a multi-state operation,requiring build up, a ship with Absalon's capacity(245 lane meters) would provide a 490meter payload , over 12 days load to final discharge. E.G. one day load, 3day passage, one day discharge, 3day return, one day load, 3 day passage, and finally one day discharge. No build up is ever same day due to congestion at disembarkation and transit to unit areas etc. Any major move can be packaged over a period.

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            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              A Irish Mech Coy would only be around 130 lane metres (but that is just the bearbones to last maybe 24 hours, no plant for building a camp etc). That is mainly MOWAGs. That is not allowing any space between vehicles.

              The EUBG Irish ISTAR TG contingent require min 333 lane metres (plus 20 TEUs). That includes MOWAGs, LTAVs etc. That is not allowing any space between vehicles.

              When the main part of the Irish contingent (up to an Inf Gp (basically an Inf Bn minus) withdrew from KFOR they brought back up to 70 vehicles (estimated to be up to 450 lane metres by DoD). That included 9 MOWAGs. Plus 40 TEUs.
              How the **** do you know all this?! Honestly, how have you worked out lane meters for an ISTAR contingent? I'm not doubting your credibility, I'm impressed!

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              • Originally posted by gibedepusib0ss View Post
                How the **** do you know all this?! Honestly, how have you worked out lane meters for an ISTAR contingent? I'm not doubting your credibility, I'm impressed!
                The quantity of vehicles and their length is always included on tender docs.
                Dev, like many who chose to, is registered (or was) on Etenders and expressed an interest in seeing the requirements.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • Correct my error- seriously- but what I'm understanding from this is that we want a ship that fits four categories:
                  Fast enough for patrol
                  Big enough to carry a mech coy
                  Small enough to fit the graving dock
                  Costs 120 million or there abouts

                  But by ticKing any two boxes, we exclude at least one of the other two.
                  Last edited by expat01; 11 February 2016, 08:04.

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                  • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                    ...But by ticKing any two boxes, we exclude at least one of the other two.
                    i'm reminded of the old saying about choosing a backpacking tent - there are three boxes: strong, light and cheap. you can only tick two of them...

                    to me it looks like the concept is completly muddled - a ship capable of moving a full Mech Inf Coy Group with all its logistics (the minimum force worth moving), and putting it ashore at a basic, damaged port/harbour without any help from on-shore cranes etc.. is by definition not going to be small, fast, fuel efficient and able to operate in comfort for months out in sea state 900 in the middle of the Atlantic. such a ship is going to roll on wet grass.

                    there are two very different, and very seperate requirements - one is a larger, more powerful OPV with greater endurance, sensors, weapons fit, and sea keeping for home operations and overseas operations like counter-piracy, national/EU sovereignty patrols, sanctions enforcement and the fighty/intimidation bit of non-combatant evacuations, and the other is the ability to move 200+ soldiers, with all their vehicles, food, fuel, and ammunition to some toilet, get them all ashore and support then in situ. it also needs to be able to do the transportation bit of an NCE, humanitarian relief, and hospital ship - it also needs to be able to do patrolling and showing the flag.

                    there is some crossover, but not much.

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                    • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                      Correct my error- seriously- but what I'm understanding from this is that we want a ship that fits four categories:
                      Fast enough for patrol
                      Big enough to carry a mech coy
                      Small enough to fit the graving dock
                      Costs 120 million or there abouts

                      But by ticKing any two boxes, we exclude at least one of the other two.

                      IMHO

                      (a) giving that its primary task will be as a big OPV - yes absolute min 20 kts as max speed
                      (b) in an ideal world probably a Bn Gp but for various reasons the capability to embark a Mech Coy Gp / EUBG ISTAR TF as a min
                      (c) ideally yes but not necessarily. But the NS may want/need it to fit in the Basin which will place constraints on the draft and beam
                      (d) well ideally half that but definitely less than €150m

                      As far as I know no one here has found a vessel (as an off the shelf design) that ticks all the boxes

                      But add to your points:
                      (e) lean manning (absolute max say 100 crew, safe manning say 40)
                      (f) P60 level accommodation standards (or better)
                      (g) endurance higher than P60 class (both in fuel economy and stores)
                      (h) 2-4 RHIBs on davits
                      (i) ability to carry 20-50 TEUs
                      (j) 76mm main gun to standardise across the fleet
                      (k) Helipad capable of taking a medium lift heli (say S92 sized)
                      (l) high level of seakeeping capability (in excess of the P50s & P60s)
                      Last edited by DeV; 11 February 2016, 09:43.

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                      • how much would it cost to alter the graving dock or extend and improve port facilities in the basin?
                        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                        • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                          how much would it cost to alter the graving dock or extend and improve port facilities in the basin?
                          Just my two cents, but since beam seems to be the limiting factor the graving dock would need to be completely rebuilt, though of course the floating dock suggestion would get around that, but you are still talking significant costs for just one ship alone.

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                          • DEV all your points but in addition an integrated 360 deg Defence system to included usual heavy and light mgs, and in addition something in the 30mm calibre range to cover beam to aftermost arcs. We also need two LCP's launched by a rigid frame Davit with in boat manual release or Absalon equivalent. If we spend 100m ++, we must give it every chance to be successful and come home.

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                            • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                              ...but you are still talking significant costs for just one ship alone.
                              i think your premise is far too short sighted - given the effect on sea states due to climate change, as well as more overseas/crunchy taskings, bigger ships are going to be the norm. yes a new graving dock or floating dock is expensive for the first ship that needs it, but does anyone here seriously believe that in 2060 or so the state will be ordering P60 sized vessels?

                              would anyone here be that surprised if, in 2060, the average OPV+ that will make up the bulk of ships being ordered/delivered will touch 4,000 tonnes - would anyone be that surprised if perhaps a third of the fleet was at around 8,000 tonnes?

                              does anyone believe that the Irish state will, for the forever future, never need/use a ship with a greater beam than 21m?

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                              • Obviously all docking is relevant to useage, especially unplanned use, as in we need it NOW. Our dry docking requirements covers 8 ships . No reason why other state or NGO users couldn't be included eg Maritime institute, and CIL. That would add another two big vessels. Floating Docks are readily available on the Market in Europe and Far East at around 3/5M USD. You need one with its own power, and not less than two travelling cranes capable of twin lift at 10tonne each. Four 500m3 ballast pumps would be ideal, some have only two. So if the drydock refurbished cannot handle a ship up to 120metres X 18metres/ 20metres at a draft of 5/6metres at an overall cost of 4.5m Euro, then buy a graving dock for use in Cork Harbour.
                                Last edited by ancientmariner; 11 February 2016, 23:24.

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