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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    ...Finally we HAVE to plan for No civilian Dry Dock in ROI. What are the strategic alternatives? Should civilian agencies be curtailed in making choices that effect the strategic welfare of elements of National Security? How do we ensure continuity of a Dry dock Facility.?
    Realistically, the obvious answer lies across the Irish Sea.

    If the Irish state is happy to have vessels built over here, to have some of its training happen here, happy to deploy its troops jointly with the UK and have its only defence MOU with the UK, then using a UK dry dock isn't exactly a great leap of faith.

    It's also the practical choice - its closest, its secure, its politically friendly.

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    • Perhaps after Scottish independence we can share Fasslane with the Scottish Navy Ropebag.

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      • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
        Perhaps after Scottish independence we can share Fasslane with the Scottish Navy Ropebag.
        perhaps when you buy a Unicorn you can ride it, but until then you can either debase yourself on a Horse or walk.

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        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          Realistically, the obvious answer lies across the Irish Sea.

          If the Irish state is happy to have vessels built over here, to have some of its training happen here, happy to deploy its troops jointly with the UK and have its only defence MOU with the UK, then using a UK dry dock isn't exactly a great leap of faith.

          It's also the practical choice - its closest, its secure, its politically friendly.
          Quite so, and also be prepared to have an occasional ship towed, in total engine failure. We need to do basic everyday things ourselves, like we use to, when we built ships and such like.

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Actually, European amphibious vehicles are fairly lightly armed with CIWS being the heaviest armament (there is the odd exception like Absalon which is a hybrid), but most of them only have up to 30mm armament.

            IMHO, something like Absalon is what we want - fast enough and with the fit to be an OPV and it can carry a sizeable load. A LPD can't do the OPV job and a big OPV can't carry a useful load.

            The NS does have the manpower (it can't keep what it has) to run a drydock operation. Even if there was it would be waste of manpower. The utilisation of a NS drydock would be a waste of taxpayers money (be it putting the Haulbowline drydock back into operation, purchasing a floating dock or purchasing Cork Dockyard. It has to be a commercial (quite possibly loss making) operation.
            Who suggested the NS would run the Drydock? Even the NS plans see private enterprise investing and running such a facility, if not civilian DoD people.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • Seems that the Canadians have, or had, an interest in the Absalon class as a destroyer...https://web.archive.org/web/20140314...bsalon-ddh.htm
              Last edited by ODIN; 14 February 2016, 14:48.
              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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              • You assume of course that a CIWS can detect, classify and successfully engage a ATGW within the 10-20 seconds that it will take to cover the ATGW's max range of up to 2.5km (or the under 10 secs it will take a RPG to cover its max 1km range). Of course, that also assumes that neither is fired inside the CIWS's min range.

                I very much doubt that there will a 9th ship as all funding between now and probably at least 2025 will go on replacement of Ciara, Orla and Eithne.

                The NS getting a drydock (and any additional vessels) would mean having to retain its strength to its establishment and some.

                On a budget, 4 RHIBs could put a platoon ashore simulatiously. They couldn't put a Nissan and trailer ashore (but neither could a LCP, a LCVP would be required and possibly a dock).

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                • You sir, are what is known in the trade as a naysayer.
                  You are finding multitudes of reasons not to do something (aside from continuing to distract the thread) while providing no positive options.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • Well can a Phalanx successfully engage an ATGW or RPG?

                    If it can then fit min 2 to the MRV, if it can't then it is still vulnerable to ATGW or RPG attack.

                    Also important, while an ATGW/RPG can be aimed at a particular part of the ship, the warhead of an Exocet is 20 times the size of a Javelin.

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                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Well can a Phalanx successfully engage an ATGW or RPG?...
                      yes. also worth noting that TOW has as combat proven range of in excess of 4km, and that 2 dads and a shed can produce a working Mortar.

                      if the NS decides not to put such basic defensive sytems on ts MRV, i'm sure it will rectify that error on the vessel that replaces it...

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Well can a Phalanx successfully engage an ATGW or RPG?

                        If it can then fit min 2 to the MRV, if it can't then it is still vulnerable to ATGW or RPG attack.

                        Also important, while an ATGW/RPG can be aimed at a particular part of the ship, the warhead of an Exocet is 20 times the size of a Javelin.
                        In this defence force an MRV is a cavalry variant of the Mowag Piranha.
                        CIWS can engage all fast moving inbound targets, regardless of size. it puts up a wall of lead(or DU) which the incoming projectile will struggle to fly through. Most warships combine CIWS with passive and active defence such as chaff or radar decoy.
                        Its a layered system, not standalone.
                        The ships you see armed only with CIWS are usually located well inside a layered defence, outside which sits multiple warships armed with anti air and surface defence.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • DEV look up Royal Navy Weapon Systems. CIWS Phalanx is for dealing with in-coming anti ship missiles. All ships are fitted with 7.62mini-guns for swarm attack defence. They also use 30mm Fire controlled units. For RPG and ATGW you have to maintain launch platforms outside 3000/4000 yards and engage preemptively with fragmenting ammunition from the OTO-Melara. Taking the Piss does not help either.

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                          • The point shouldn't have to be re-made every few pages that if we're willing to put the best trained personnel, with the best equipment, on a vessel which will be as vulnerable to attack from a TOW/C802-YJ82 (weapons that are proliferating around the worlds trouble spots) as a RO-RO ferry, then just hire a ferry. If the threat assessment says that's ok, and will be forevermore, that is the only cost effective solution.

                            I think we can forget ASW, Medium range SAMs and AESA radars.

                            But an oversized OPV, equipped only for policing its own territorial waters, lumbering in to a trouble spot, where just one lucky hit could potentially take out both the biggest vessel and pointiest end of a modern European Army... eggs, one basket...

                            As ropebag said, if we're not prepared to do this right, we'd just be getting in the way.
                            Last edited by pym; 14 February 2016, 20:10.

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                            • Here's an Idea.

                              The State purchase a vessel similar to Hurst Point, use it to ship vehicles and freight to wherever it wishes for overseas missions, while at the same time training it's merchant seamen, and providing employment for others, who were forced off irish flagged ships when cheaper workers were hired in. (Irish Ferries).
                              And either buy a larger OPV for OPV duties, or a low end Frigate sized vessel (with nothing too complicated, lest DEVs head might explode) to escort this vessel into hostile waters. BAM class opv or Karel Doorman class Frigate for example. Netherlands recently sold 2 of theirs (Built in early 1990s) to its Neighbour Belgium, another 2 to Portugal, 2 to Chile and there are 2 more still in service, no doubt soon to be sold when the rest of the Hollands are fully in service.
                              The Hurst Point type ship can send our foreign aid wherever it needs to go, or send and recover our defence forces equipment when required, and the rest of the time, can find plenty of work on the Irish sea freight routes.
                              Trying to get one ship to do both jobs seems to be impossible.


                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • After 38 pages, this is potentially the most sensible proposal I have read. We have to dip our toe into a proper naval vessel sometime, it may as well be a second-hand Dutch frigate. And if the lads have to sleep 6 to a room, well hey, welcome to the real world of having a navy rather then a naval service. Depending on the price of a used Hartland Point type vessel, why not consider having it operated by the military? If you can devise 7-10 months of useful work for it annually it could be a real asset.

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