Thanks Thanks:  613
Likes Likes:  1,299
Dislikes Dislikes:  37
Page 65 of 85 FirstFirst ... 1555636465666775 ... LastLast
Results 1,601 to 1,625 of 2111
  1. #1601
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    3,056
    Post Thanks / Like
    A cynic might say they don't want helicopters because it would mean fewer hulls.

  2. #1602
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    3,200
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yeah plus a new aviation division/transplants from the don means more competition for cushy appointments.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  3. #1603
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,421
    Post Thanks / Like
    so if someone from a shore appointment is detached to a vessel due to crew shortages they don't get PDA
    Don't know what the criteria is these days, but back in the day unless you were posted to a ship you didn't get PDA...and the ship had to be on a recognised patrol to get that.

    Patrol Duty Allowance back in the 1980s was 5 pounds and Five pence..per day!!!!

    We all have heard ad nauseam about the Eithne experiment disaster but how is it that the NS is the only operator of grey ships that thinks they're pointless?
    I would suggest that it is pointless if you don't have a helo to operate and there isn't an option to operate one on the horizon.

    The concept is sound enough but the reality being its not going to happen as long as the AC buy helos that are non compatible with ships and not even the slightest effort was made to have them compatible.

    Yes given the role of the NS is expanding beyond territorial waters and the proposal for an MRV may become a reality then it should facilitate a heli deck and fueling facilities.

    If that works and gets regular use then future builds should potential include heli facilities. If not having heli capacity was the cost of having extra ships..so be it. Ships have 30 years plus life span. if you don't get them in the water to replace aging assets you may never get them.

    Should we have lost a ship because of a tennis court on each of the others....given the use it would get..certainly not!
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 13th August 2017 at 21:22.
    Time for another break I think......

  4. Thanks DeV, EUFighter thanked for this post
  5. #1604
    Colonel
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,494
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Have the EU provided any funds since Eithne?
    €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.

  6. Thanks hptmurphy thanked for this post
  7. #1605
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.
    Is that per year or just a once off lump sum?

  8. #1606
    Colonel
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,494
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Is that per year or just a once off lump sum?
    Just €12 million, not sure if its a lump sum or spread out over the six years.

  9. #1607
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    20,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Not much considering they gave us half the cost of Roisin (not sure about Niamh)

  10. #1608
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like

    new ships

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not much considering they gave us half the cost of Roisin (not sure about Niamh)
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.

  11. Likes Shaqra, Graylion liked this post
  12. #1609
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    Ship is conned by the OOW usually from the centre bridge window for any coastal/berthing/anchoring ops. This combined with a lookout again at the bridge windows ensures safe pilotage and navigation of the the P60. Not to mention 2 x navigation radars. The information is fed from the wheel, engines, comms to the OOW with the OC supervising from his chair if necessary.

  13. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  14. #1610
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    20,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action.
    Which of course means we have to decide (a) what we want the MRV to do (b) what level of military ops we want (and can afford)



    Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    From what I remember of being on Beckett, the consoles don't really block the view

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...7535/image.jpg

  15. #1611
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,822
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    SDC13846
    View of Bridge wing from above.
    SDC13832
    The Gentleman is standing at the centre bridge window. You'll note there is a gap behind him where there are no consoles. Should the OC chose to remain in his seat, he has an unobscured view forward at all times.
    SDC13834
    The Location of the OCs seat, showing the overlooking view it offers.
    I can only recommend you take the time to visit one of the vessels for yourself someday. Don't be afraid to tell them your background and the crew will be more than happy to show you around. Some exers even partake in an annual "trip on a ship" though I appreciate this is not to everyones taste. The situational awareness the combination of consoles and visibility provides is excellent. Granted P31 had a better view aft from the bridge, but she was a notable exception in service.
    It is still light years ahead of operating with radar at night in the 70s and 80s, with your ARPA either behind a curtain or under a cone.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  16. Thanks pym, hptmurphy, EUFighter, DeV thanked for this post
  17. #1612
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The Location of the OCs seat, showing the overlooking view it offers.
    I can only recommend you take the time to visit one of the vessels for yourself someday. Don't be afraid to tell them your background and the crew will be more than happy to show you around. Some exers even partake in an annual "trip on a ship" though I appreciate this is not to everyones taste. The situational awareness the combination of consoles and visibility provides is excellent. Granted P31 had a better view aft from the bridge, but she was a notable exception in service.
    It is still light years ahead of operating with radar at night in the 70s and 80s, with your ARPA either behind a curtain or under a cone.
    Despite having toured the ship, I'm of the opinion that near water views, other than forward of the consoles is not available. OOW is compromised if he needs to maneuver the ship without a second pair of hands and EYES.

  18. #1613
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,822
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well he is never going to be alone on the bridge in any situation. Would be different in a merchant vessel of course. The vessel can be conned from either bridge wing or the normal position.
    The layout in my opinion is a vast improvement on days of old. Helm and engine control are out of the line of sight of the OOW or the OC. Meantime within his peripheral are MFDs showing anything from engine management to radar, ECDIS, AIS and if necessary EOD. The area in front of these consoles allows him the advantage of no light pollution from consoles should he need to focus on distant lights etc. Last skipper I had used to throw a teatowel over the Radar screen at night to save his night vision.
    Many of the displays are also available to the skipper in his stateroom, via his PC.

    You should really try and get a jolly on her.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  19. Thanks DeV, hptmurphy, Turkey, ias thanked for this post
    Likes DeV, EUFighter, Turkey liked this post
  20. #1614
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    What about external cameras aft facing and forward facing starboard and port? would they not be a useful secondary input for narrow nav?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  21. #1615
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    What about external cameras aft facing and forward facing starboard and port? would they not be a useful secondary input for narrow nav?
    If a bridge MFD could take a feed from an optronic sight (FCS) it might help, otherwise camera's are helpful to cover blind spots in after sectors.

  22. #1616
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    20,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Most vessels (including NS vessels AFAIK) now have CCTV

  23. #1617
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,822
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, CCTV covers both RIB launch areas as well as aft, and the EOD provides 360 day and night optics if required. (except for a slight blind spot directly behind, obscured by the ships mast and funnel of all things. Often wonder why this piece of kit is not mounted at or near the masts highest point?)
    Didn't Eithne have FCS on both bridge wings?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  24. #1618
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    20,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Yes, CCTV covers both RIB launch areas as well as aft, and the EOD provides 360 day and night optics if required. (except for a slight blind spot directly behind, obscured by the ships mast and funnel of all things. Often wonder why this piece of kit is not mounted at or near the masts highest point?)
    Didn't Eithne have FCS on both bridge wings?
    Correct, can't remember exactly what they were called captain's sights or something but allowed the bridge to designate a target for the 57mm

  25. #1619
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,978
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Yes, CCTV covers both RIB launch areas as well as aft, and the EOD provides 360 day and night optics if required. (except for a slight blind spot directly behind, obscured by the ships mast and funnel of all things. Often wonder why this piece of kit is not mounted at or near the masts highest point?)
    Didn't Eithne have FCS on both bridge wings?
    I'm guessing the EO turret isn't mounted on the mast because of the weight of it and the accompanying stabilization system.

    IMO it's a fairly hefty blind spot:



    I know the NS aren't fools - there's an ideal spot for another EO turret beside the satellite domes to cover that area - I'd love any vessel doing anything beyond a fishery patrol in Irish waters to have the second system, but €€€€ etc...

    I imagine we'll see the Rheinmetalls replaced with RWS and their own EO system in the next 10-15 years and that will cover all angles.
    Last edited by pym; 23rd August 2017 at 22:19.

  26. #1620
    CQMS Dogwatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Correct, can't remember exactly what they were called captain's sights or something but allowed the bridge to designate a target for the 57mm
    TDS, Target Designation Sights, they fed into the Signaal (now Thales) LIOD FCS

  27. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  28. #1621
    CQMS Dogwatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Irrespective of who pays for what we need to ensure that the ship is cleared, at design stage, to be fit for all the purposes intended. Some naval vessels are designated for Military Operations Only Not War. Some are more hardened such as Holland Class and can take a more vigorous defensive action. Looking at a recent head on shot of a p60 vessel I noted all the bridge windows are obscured by equipment consoles which means that from aft of the consoles there is no near water view for the bridge watchkeepers. It must make close quarters maneuvering a bit fraught and detract from situational awareness. Visual aspects of navigation must always remain paramount as all ship surface movements are to the choice of those in control and can lead to collision through been unaware of closer targets, especially at night.
    That's why the OOW & Lookout(s) should be forward of the console for the majority of their watch. The design also allows easy access to the consoles for maintenance, unlike the bridge designs of P20 & P30 class. Also the indigenous design bridge we used previously gave everyone back problems...... the consoles were so low!

    Because our ships (post P31) weren't allowed to have an Ops Room, the bridges on the P50's & P60's have been designed to allow more planning space. Any modern ergonomic bridge design leans towards more open plan, to allow for modernization / updates / refits / planning and full optimization of space. However, on the P60s, I do feel that the movement of the MCO (Comcen) from the bridge deck to the flat behind the bridge has been a regressive step.

  29. Thanks hptmurphy, na grohmití, Herald thanked for this post
  30. #1622
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwatch View Post
    That's why the OOW & Lookout(s) should be forward of the console for the majority of their watch. The design also allows easy access to the consoles for maintenance, unlike the bridge designs of P20 & P30 class. Also the indigenous design bridge we used previously gave everyone back problems...... the consoles were so low!

    Because our ships (post P31) weren't allowed to have an Ops Room, the bridges on the P50's & P60's have been designed to allow more planning space. Any modern ergonomic bridge design leans towards more open plan, to allow for modernization / updates / refits / planning and full optimization of space. However, on the P60s, I do feel that the movement of the MCO (Comcen) from the bridge deck to the flat behind the bridge has been a regressive step.
    Could be the reason the Comcen got cocooned to allow for environmental concerns for equipments such as aircon and clean air? Security might be another factor. Getting rid of blind sectors should include an auto-controlled 30mm gun, covering after sector with it's own EOD/FCS.The photo in the previous threads shows consoles heights in the bridge windows. Often in bridge outfitting, the deck is false ,with services running underneath to the consoles and controls. This allows foundations to be fastened to the true deck and reduce apparent heights by the difference between true deck and false deck. Nothing should obscure a bridge window.

  31. Likes Dogwatch liked this post
  32. #1623
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    430
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwatch View Post
    That's why the OOW & Lookout(s) should be forward of the console for the majority of their watch. The design also allows easy access to the consoles for maintenance, unlike the bridge designs of P20 & P30 class. Also the indigenous design bridge we used previously gave everyone back problems...... the consoles were so low!

    Because our ships (post P31) weren't allowed to have an Ops Room, the bridges on the P50's & P60's have been designed to allow more planning space. Any modern ergonomic bridge design leans towards more open plan, to allow for modernization / updates / refits / planning and full optimization of space. However, on the P60s, I do feel that the movement of the MCO (Comcen) from the bridge deck to the flat behind the bridge has been a regressive step.


    Have to disagree. There is a Tactical Operations Console on the bridge. Thats what you will find on all naval vessels worldwide. The ComCen is your rearlink communications to HQ & BLOS communications.

  33. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  34. #1624
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    20,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Eithne was used by 3 Inf Bn, who were collected from Rosslare, to attack Fort Davis this week.

    The NS says on Facebook that the MRV will have "joint capabilities"

  35. #1625
    2/Lt
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Eithne was used by 3 Inf Bn, who were collected from Rosslare, to attack Fort Davis this week.

    The NS says on Facebook that the MRV will have "joint capabilities"
    Yeah I saw those notes on the pics, both for the MRV and the comment on the RIBs as well...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Naval air ops no more?
    By Goldie fish in forum Navy & Naval Reserve
    Replies: 303
    Last Post: 29th December 2015, 13:01
  2. Naval Wishlist(realistic)
    By Goldie fish in forum Navy & Naval Reserve
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 10th April 2007, 22:54
  3. Naval Training Ship?
    By Goldie fish in forum Navy & Naval Reserve
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 4th February 2003, 00:19

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •