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  • Just a couple of points:
    Joining NATO is a political matter, not a NS one..
    We might be a damn sight better off on being a US permanently moored aircraft carrier, but again not a NS matter.
    I ain't naming anyone, but someone around here who has even less knowledge of ships then me, is not reading what is being said to him and perpetrating a circular argument which is both boring and pointless. [It's also driving me nuttier!]
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Did I say that!?
      The point I was raising is blindingly obvious to everyone, you responded with a non answer - a nothing statement, framed like a rebuttal.

      I don't think there's any point in engaging you in discussion on this any more.

      I'm not tied to any one concept, I love seeing well reasoned counter arguments that move the discussion along, but this is as productive as bashing my head against a wall.

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      • Likewise!!!

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        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          if sub-surface is a genuine issue, surely remote sensing - effectively SOSUS - is the way ahead?

          expensive certainly, but compared to the costs of a submarine (or 3 or 4, in order to have one at sea and trained up..), and compared to the learning curve required, cheap at 50 times the price, and several orders of manitude easier to do...

          Like the fighter ac discussion, the first steps are the cheapest, and yet are fundamental to expanding capabilities in future years.

          I'd hope that whatever replaces the Casa's will at least have provision for Sonobuoys.

          Remote sensing, both sub surface and above has military and civilian applications and could be something for IMERC to look at.

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          • Hooray , looks like this thread finally ran out of steam .
            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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            • Or put us into another bailout

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              • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                Hooray , looks like this thread finally ran out of steam .
                Dev let the boiler room doors open. (Marine Engineers will get it).
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • Navy ships are at risk of being grounded by mechanical or structural failure if a shortage of officers is not addressed quickly.


                  Yesterday the Examiner had a piece mentioning how the NS is finally back at full capability following the asbestos issues, and the retirement of the older ships.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                    Dev let the boiler room doors open. (Marine Engineers will get it).
                    Message received and understood , and I am not an engineer...
                    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                    Illegitimi non carborundum

                    Comment


                    • Thread split, we is looking for a silent service...
                      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                      Illegitimi non carborundum

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Or put us into another bailout
                        Ya know the way we have buttons for thanks, like, and dislike, we need another one for f***ing p******ss!
                        "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                        Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                        Illegitimi non carborundum

                        Comment


                        • This thread has sunk to new depths...pardon the pun!!

                          From starting with EPV/MRV suggestions......to only an Absolon will do, nothing else.....now to submarines

                          if we could make the Hovertanks submersible....give some to the Army and some to the Naval Service.....problem sorted!!
                          An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                          • https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LbeRpW0JDiQ But it worked in the '60s

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                            • Lets place "Fantasy Minsiter for Defence" :-)

                              Imagine you have just been named as the new Minister in the forthcoming Government with a moderate increase in spending built into the new Programme for government.

                              As well as the normal provisions for pensions, wages buildings maintenance, vehicle maintenance, consumables (everything from brake pads to munitions) the following has also been agreed as part of the new programme for government

                              200 million over the lifetime of the next Government is to be allocated to the new MRV Submersible Flagship Eithne replacement LPD Logistics vessel Mini aircraft carrier (we have to stick those Gripens somewhere! ;-). ((stage payments of 40 million a year for 5 years) What will you spend it on.????

                              New build new spec?
                              Absalon Light
                              San Giorgio?

                              25 Million for replacing the Scorpion fleet (5 million a year over 5 years) what will you get? Some Leo 2s? (possibly secondhand?) CV 90’s? (which model 40mm or 30mm or 120mm More MRVs for standardisation? Etc etc

                              And finally military Air Search radars (no idea how much this would cost) and a tender is to be released inviting proposals for small ECONOMIC Air defence ECONOMIC Fighter. This tender wil not be awarded until the next Govt due to financial reasons but you (As Minister) will get to frame the terms of the tender and consequently have a huge influence over what may be proposed. So…. What are looking for single engine or twin? Ultra modern or “previous Generation? Any suggestions as to Aircraft should include potential costs. :-)

                              It’s a slightly more realistic way of continuing the “Hover Sub” thread :-)

                              Also the name for the AC Fighter Squadron, all suggestions welcome I’m thinking something along the lines of the Bearhunters ;-)
                              Last edited by Banner; 3 March 2016, 12:42.

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                              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                ...The LPD proposal is obviously a joke as it would take all of the NS to man it.
                                18,000 tonne LPD/LDA's have baseline crews around the 100-120 mark, which as the numerate will know, is rather less than the total NS manning figure, and as the literate will know, rather less than the crew required to man a full-on fighting Frigate.

                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                ...Submarines do not need underwater man made beacons to navigate.
                                no none suggested they do - situational awareness is not navigational awareness, confusing though it appears those two similar words are. situational awareness is the information gathered from all sources that is used to inform the mission planners as to where they aught to start looking, where to hang around, what to listen for and what patterns of behaviour to expect. not having such systems is akin to having fighters without having large, powerful ground based radars to cue those fighters onto targets of interest.


                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                ...It seems to me that there is a cabal sticking to a theme that is dying to be buried.
                                on the contrary, there is merely a cabal who understand the broad principles of submarine and sub-surface operations, the current and foreseable threat matrix and who have a grasp of how much submarines operations cost - and who also have an understanding of the political and diplomatic strengths of different forms of Defence diplomacy.

                                submarines are very very good at saying '**** off' in a maritime, high-intensity war or near-war environment, they are however shit at counter-piracy, or littoral sanctions enforcement, or sovereignty enforcement.

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