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  1. #1826
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    Many years ago I took the drawings from that issue and redrew them on double scale. It makes for a great wall decoration.
    Oddly while the compartments may have slightly different uses now (in particular on 02 deck) structurally and layout wise, little has changed.
    A model of her anchor handling arrangement remains in use as a training aid at NMCI. It was unique at the time, and the design has served the ship well.
    It always interests me though that in each drawing, the heli on deck is a Lynx, not a Dauphin.
    P31 has in my opinion (and many who served on her) been a fine design of ship. A second in class could only have been an improvement, had it happened. Her retirement is inevitable. My only hope is that her sturdy design finds a new use to a future owner. I believe she is well suited to being converted for use as a survey or research ship, should use as a coastguard vessel not be appropriate or available.
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  2. #1827
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    Well wasn't the original idea for the Lynx before politics meant that the Dauphin was picked instead?

  3. #1828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Well wasn't the original idea for the Lynx before politics meant that the Dauphin was picked instead?
    More or less, from what I heard 15 lynx were to replace the A111's but then finance reared it's ugly wallet.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  5. #1829
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    Marine Helicopters

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    More or less, from what I heard 15 lynx were to replace the A111's but then finance reared it's ugly wallet.
    When Verholme were producing commercial data and brochures about the P31 project they put that aspect in the hands of an outside agency. At an early juncture it had not yet been decided which helicopter would be the Aircorps choice so the Lynx was used as a stand-in generically. In the end it made no difference as the concept wasn't everybody's dream and died from circumstances.

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  7. #1830
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    One wonders what could have been.
    Round then (1982) it seemed quite clear that Ireland was to purchase a number of Super Puma for SAR and troop transport, such was the success of 242 in the winter of 81/82.
    Then following the economic slump that saw widespread factory closures and huge unemployment, the lease for 242 was not renewed and any plans to purchase Super Pumas remained on the drawing board.
    In any event, at the time, both the lynx and dauphin were the European naval heli of choice. The only impact was there was no dedicated naval helis. All 5 were multi purpose, 2 were modified for deck landing.

    Verolme definitely flew all the flags when it came to promotional literature for P31. I remember a 3 page folding pull out in Cara, the Aer Lingus in Flight Magazine.
    These days the design and layout of new naval vessels is almost a closely guarded secret until they first appear out of the build hall in Appledore.
    Given the amount of public money involved one wonders is it better to let the taxpayer know exactly what they are getting in lay man terms with artists impressions, instead of some generic press release with lots of Naval Jargon and high notions?
    See example of the latter below.
    “The Government’s current ship replacement programme has delivered three Naval Service vessels, representing a significant investment by the Government in the provision of defence capability for the State. The ship that is being built at present will be the fourth in this class providing huge commonality benefits to the Naval Service and allowing for greater operational capacity.”

    Minister Kehoe concluded by complimenting employees at Babcock “for their ability to produce well designed and stylish ships with state of the art equipment which have already proven their value to the Irish Naval Service both at home and on overseas missions.”
    Joe public sees the words stylish and thinks luxury motor yacht to ferry ministers about.
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  9. #1831
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    For those suggesting HMS Ocean

    She has been reportedly sold to Brazil for UK£ 84m

    Interesting video on her design and operation
    https://youtu.be/GWZ9jZgznfw

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  11. #1832
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    I do wonder how much time/resources she's going to soak up given her reported material state, better than Foch without question but still going to need a lot of care and attention.

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  13. #1833
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    Had a £65m refit just 4 years ago reportedly

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89...try-of-Defence

  14. #1834
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    She is at the end of her 20 year expected lifespan.
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  15. #1835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Had a £65m refit just 4 years ago reportedly

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89...try-of-Defence
    Think that was basically a "keep her going till she's out the door" refit, rather than actually tackling her major material issues.

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  17. #1836
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    She is at the end of her 20 year expected lifespan.
    I've seen reports that it's even more than that, when she was being built reportedly to keep the costs down many major parts/systems were picked from end of production line equipment so now getting parts/spares for sustaining her (like her engines for example) is getting more difficult as well as just the general knacked state she's in from usage.

  18. #1837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I've seen reports that it's even more than that, when she was being built reportedly to keep the costs down many major parts/systems were picked from end of production line equipment so now getting parts/spares for sustaining her (like her engines for example) is getting more difficult as well as just the general knacked state she's in from usage.
    A ship maintained and refitted with a view to extending usage will always be capable as designed. However if a newer larger version, in this case two, arrives in the fleet, then something has to give if the same manpower levels are to be adhered to. The Brazilians will be happy with their purchase, and are technically capable to get use from a ship 15 years younger than our P31.

  19. #1838
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    A ship maintained and refitted with a view to extending usage will always be capable as designed. However if a newer larger version, in this case two, arrives in the fleet, then something has to give if the same manpower levels are to be adhered to. The Brazilians will be happy with their purchase, and are technically capable to get use from a ship 15 years younger than our P31.
    Except as I've said she's reportedly well known within the RN as having significant material issues (seen comments about the Fire main being rusted through for example), and with difficult to source parts due to age, is she as capable as she was 20 years ago (or rather what funding is needed to get her into that condition) is another question, as mentioned her last refit wasn't to "extend her usage" but just to get her to the end of RN life with little regard to what state she would be in then. From the sounds of it she's not nearly as good as P31 in state (or arguable build, she was as cheap as the RN could get her). As to her replacements, well I'd argue against the idea that fleet carriers should be doing the job (they can do it, but they should be doing something else, somewhere else). As to the Brazilians being happy, bit early for that, the Canadians were happy with their bargain SSK's that took a decade plus of work to get into service, the Australians were happy with their Bay until they had to switch out her power pack, and the Brazilians were happy with the Foch as it sucked their budget dry for little operational value. It might be better to look in 5 years at how much sea time she's down and what she's been used for and then decide whether she was a good buy for the Brazilians or whether a new build though more expensive might have been better (given the deals France has been giving on FREMM's maybe a Mistral on credit would have been better).

  20. #1839
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    You also, perhaps predominantly, need to look at expectation: do the Brazilians expect a 20yo ship to have X or Y readiness or availability?, And indeed you have to look at why they are buying it - are they buying the O boat in order the consolidate and expand their amphibious warfare capability and undertake high intensity operations , or are they buying it so they can say they have the largest warship in South America?

    Hasn't India only just decommissioned Hermes/Vikrant, a ship that in 1984 was considered by the RN to be passed the end of its useful life..?

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  22. #1840
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    You also, perhaps predominantly, need to look at expectation: do the Brazilians expect a 20yo ship to have X or Y readiness or availability?, And indeed you have to look at why they are buying it - are they buying the O boat in order the consolidate and expand their amphibious warfare capability and undertake high intensity operations , or are they buying it so they can say they have the largest warship in South America?

    Hasn't India only just decommissioned Hermes/Vikrant, a ship that in 1984 was considered by the RN to be passed the end of its useful life..?
    In terms of Hermes how much of that was political in her decommissioning with the 3 new hulls coming online, on the other hand a quick look for her Indian Service has her in dock for periods within '93-'95, '99-'01, '03-'04, '09, '11 and '12-'13, what level of operational rate did she have out of dock? Given how limited the amphibious operations of the Brazilians have undertaken I have to wonder if it's a case of willie waving since Foch went out of service.

  23. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    In terms of Hermes how much of that was political in her decommissioning with the 3 new hulls coming online, on the other hand a quick look for her Indian Service has her in dock for periods within '93-'95, '99-'01, '03-'04, '09, '11 and '12-'13, what level of operational rate did she have out of dock? Given how limited the amphibious operations of the Brazilians have undertaken I have to wonder if it's a case of willie waving since Foch went out of service.
    i think its willy waving.

    both Ocean and Hermes had had the shit thrashed out of them and were compromised design/builds in the first place - their useful lives at the forefront of high intensity warfighting are/were over, and the only reason you'd buy them is to look like you were able to do this stuff, not to actually be able to do it.

    right now if you want a hugely capable 4X4 you buy something Japanese - the only reason you'd buy a series one LR Defender is because you want to be seen driving a series one LR Defender...

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  25. #1842
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    Naval Ship Building

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i think its willy waving.

    both Ocean and Hermes had had the shit thrashed out of them and were compromised design/builds in the first place - their useful lives at the forefront of high intensity warfighting are/were over, and the only reason you'd buy them is to look like you were able to do this stuff, not to actually be able to do it.

    right now if you want a hugely capable 4X4 you buy something Japanese - the only reason you'd buy a series one LR Defender is because you want to be seen driving a series one LR Defender...
    It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement

  26. #1843
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement
    And yet it happens more often than we think. The Canadians thought the U class was a great deal, instead they ended up with lemons that ended up with a dead sailor and a decade of dockyard time to get them into limited service. In Brazil's case just look at the Foch and her history in their service (in fact just look at the history of the South America countries for example their "Dreadnought Race"), she's been an utter lemon that has sucked their budget dry for extremely limited value and even if she was 100% operational what exactly is the need for Brazil to support a Carrier?

  27. #1844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It is beyond comprehension that any Navy would build a class of ship, to fill a leading Flagship role, with capricious intent, thereby having her tasked beyond capability, and the Staff knowing it's a crock of excrement and not fit for purpose. I don't think it's like that rather something New came on the horizon and current tonnage had to be talked out of Service to allow replacement
    With respect, the RN have been doing this for decades. Their main flagships, for the last 3 generations have been designed by politicians, not navies. The navy had to make do with what they were given. CVA01 was cancelled, and Ark Royal and Eagle were converted to operate Phantoms (which were intended for CVA01). Hermes was converted into a helicopter carrier. In time it was decided to mothball Eagle to keep Ark Royal in parts. (sound familiar?).
    The RN were then offerred the "through deck cruisers" as a compromise to stay in the business of aircraft carriers without actually having any, purely to support proper aircraft carriers in NATO anti submarine patrols. Luckily the Sea Harrier arrived just in time to keep the RN in the fixed wing business.
    The tale of the Current carriers has been a political one from the outset, designed purely to support the UK aircraft and shipbuilding industry. 2 ships built by every UK dockyard, flying a UK built aircraft, yet unproven in service, with major redesigns mid build, to accomodate a less useful type than one the ship was initially to accomodate, and in smaller numbers than planned, with a smaller air arm than its predecessor, while being a larger ship than its predecessor.
    Ireland has been down the 2nd hand route often in the history of our Defence Forces. It has always served us better not to do so. Better off opting to take the financial hit to build something modern and suited to our needs, than to save money to buy technology 20 to thirty years behind the times, then end up spending again in the short term to modernise, only for the particular modernised equipment to then no longer be fit for purpose.
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  29. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    With respect, the RN have been doing this for decades. Their main flagships, for the last 3 generations have been designed by politicians, not navies. The navy had to make do with what they were given. CVA01 was cancelled, and Ark Royal and Eagle were converted to operate Phantoms (which were intended for CVA01). Hermes was converted into a helicopter carrier. In time it was decided to mothball Eagle to keep Ark Royal in parts. (sound familiar?).
    The RN were then offerred the "through deck cruisers" as a compromise to stay in the business of aircraft carriers without actually having any, purely to support proper aircraft carriers in NATO anti submarine patrols. Luckily the Sea Harrier arrived just in time to keep the RN in the fixed wing business.
    The tale of the Current carriers has been a political one from the outset, designed purely to support the UK aircraft and shipbuilding industry. 2 ships built by every UK dockyard, flying a UK built aircraft, yet unproven in service, with major redesigns mid build, to accomodate a less useful type than one the ship was initially to accomodate, and in smaller numbers than planned, with a smaller air arm than its predecessor, while being a larger ship than its predecessor.
    Ireland has been down the 2nd hand route often in the history of our Defence Forces. It has always served us better not to do so. Better off opting to take the financial hit to build something modern and suited to our needs, than to save money to buy technology 20 to thirty years behind the times, then end up spending again in the short term to modernise, only for the particular modernised equipment to then no longer be fit for purpose.
    Not totally as you say. Political interference yes. Bad leadership yes. Bad decisions yes. However the last British Aircraft to form part of an CV's flight were the Sea Harriers with a variety of Westland's providing rotary requirements. There is no emerging British Aircraft Industry for combat aircraft except bits and pieces which will succumb to Britex. There is no market for what the Brit's are doing except the disposal market. Our acquisition of Corvettes in 1949 and CMS's in 1970's was relevant for their day. There was no starting gun fired on replacements until the Naval Service had a fleet of None. The DOD wanted ships only for Fishery Protection, to be largely financed by the EU, and fitted with GFE from disposed ships.

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  31. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Not totally as you say. Political interference yes. Bad leadership yes. Bad decisions yes. However the last British Aircraft to form part of an CV's flight were the Sea Harriers with a variety of Westland's providing rotary requirements. There is no emerging British Aircraft Industry for combat aircraft except bits and pieces which will succumb to Britex. There is no market for what the Brit's are doing except the disposal market. Our acquisition of Corvettes in 1949 and CMS's in 1970's was relevant for their day. There was no starting gun fired on replacements until the Naval Service had a fleet of None. The DOD wanted ships only for Fishery Protection, to be largely financed by the EU, and fitted with GFE from disposed ships.
    Above 3rd Line please read Brexit for Britex which might be cleaner!

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  33. #1847
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Many years ago I took the drawings from that issue and redrew them on double scale. It makes for a great wall decoration.
    Oddly while the compartments may have slightly different uses now (in particular on 02 deck) structurally and layout wise, little has changed.
    A model of her anchor handling arrangement remains in use as a training aid at NMCI. It was unique at the time, and the design has served the ship well.
    It always interests me though that in each drawing, the heli on deck is a Lynx, not a Dauphin.
    P31 has in my opinion (and many who served on her) been a fine design of ship. A second in class could only have been an improvement, had it happened. Her retirement is inevitable. My only hope is that her sturdy design finds a new use to a future owner. I believe she is well suited to being converted for use as a survey or research ship, should use as a coastguard vessel not be appropriate or available.
    I reckon that any future user would re equip her with a helo. While would be as technically efficient as Eithne was back in her helo days, it could carry a low tech fit out.

    I remember a 3 page folding pull out in Cara,
    I remember the day they did the photo shoot for that

    the lease for 242 was not renewed
    Because it was about to fall apart and only after a major rebuild did it become safer...its still in service!

    Joe public sees the words stylish and thinks luxury motor yacht to ferry ministers about.
    Wasnt too far from the truth at one point..baby sitting Charlie at Inisvickilaune..and bring Paddy Hillery around the coast playing golf!!!!
    Time for another break I think......

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  35. #1848
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    Britex also works..
    The Bits and pieces the British aircraft industry build for the F35 is all they have left to pin their hopes on. The Sea Harrier FA2 was a far superior aircraft, which could have benefited from further upgrades, as the land based GR9 version did. Indeed after the premature retirement of the FA2 (likened to the conquistadors scuttling their ships when they reached the Aztecs so the crew could not mutiny) the GR9 served adequately aboard ship.
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  37. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Britex also works..
    The Bits and pieces the British aircraft industry build for the F35 is all they have left to pin their hopes on. The Sea Harrier FA2 was a far superior aircraft, which could have benefited from further upgrades, as the land based GR9 version did. Indeed after the premature retirement of the FA2 (likened to the conquistadors scuttling their ships when they reached the Aztecs so the crew could not mutiny) the GR9 served adequately aboard ship.
    Well since it's the only NATO 5th gen in development it puts them in some position, the proposed European next gen won't even start for another decade at best. As to the FA2 given the other reductions the RN made to build the Carriers it's not surprising along with the usual RN/RAF pissing match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The article referring to 130 meter vessel was in Irish Examiner 11/12/2017. The length is the clue to potential tonnage and can give you displacement tonnage eg 130 m x 19 m x 5 m = 12350 then multiply by 1025 over 1000 to give 12650t in salt water.
    you just calculated the volume of a block. For a ship you'll need the block coefficient, for simplicity's sake assume .5 so we are talking ~6.3 Gg displacement

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