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  • It would be comparatively so easy to propose a SOSUS like setup - even taking ASW out of the equation it would serve as a force multiplier for the OPV'S and the MPA'S.

    Vessel detected, position triangulated to 100Nm off Achill, no AIS detected on Sat pass = bloody suspicious, go investigate.

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    • Originally posted by pym View Post
      It would be comparatively so easy to propose a SOSUS like setup - even taking ASW out of the equation it would serve as a force multiplier for the OPV'S and the MPA'S.

      Vessel detected, position triangulated to 100Nm off Achill, no AIS detected on Sat pass = bloody suspicious, go investigate.
      Or use a satellite

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Or use a satellite
        yeah, Aldi are doing one for €9.99 including the launch package. they aren't putting them on general sale but keeing them under the counter for special customers - they come with a free bag of Crack...

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        • I used the term beacon in that no such system exists to act as guide to submarines of the Diesel electric attack type such as the 209 and her successors. The suspended arrays, SOSUS, provide an overall oceanic picture to major commands to allow them divert assets such as Hunter Killers, to investigate. Aircraft can sow sonobuoys to investigate a possible area of contact. Non nuclear attack submarines are used to defend areas, attack enemy shipping, gather information, and assist in covert operations. In closed areas patrolled by a submarine, she would build up her own picture of her assigned area, using her own sonar systems. There isn't a system that provides a micro sub-surface picture, just long range sensors that give macro information on the passage of somebody's submarine. For instance there is a listening station at the Azores that covers the Straits of Gibralter. We dont need any of that information to operate submarines in our own waters.
          The USN course for WW11 Submarine Crews, for Fleet submarines, was programmed to last SEVEN weeks. How ridiculous was that.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            I used the term beacon in that no such system exists to act as guide to submarines of the Diesel electric attack type such as the 209 and her successors. The suspended arrays, SOSUS, provide an overall oceanic picture to major commands to allow them divert assets such as Hunter Killers, to investigate. Aircraft can sow sonobuoys to investigate a possible area of contact. Non nuclear attack submarines are used to defend areas, attack enemy shipping, gather information, and assist in covert operations. In closed areas patrolled by a submarine, she would build up her own picture of her assigned area, using her own sonar systems. There isn't a system that provides a micro sub-surface picture, just long range sensors that give macro information on the passage of somebody's submarine. For instance there is a listening station at the Azores that covers the Straits of Gibralter. We dont need any of that information to operate submarines in our own waters.
            The USN course for WW11 Submarine Crews, for Fleet submarines, was programmed to last SEVEN weeks. How ridiculous was that.
            As I posted Portugal which has a larger population and does spend over €2 billion a year has only 2 U 214's not enough to maintain a continuous force deployed, and yet at the same time over half of it's surface fleet is over 40 years old, with the newest hulls being over 20 years old. So I fail to see how even if we were spending 2 billion we could sustain the 4 needed to have 1 hull always operational, also consider while the Canadians are perhaps the worst, the Aussie Collins class aren't exactly wonderful performers either and they have a much larger budget.

            For the price tag of generating a sub force, vastly more improvements across the board could be made to the DF strength and deliver more capabilities and more international operations if we choose to do so.

            And at that could we try to get back to the more reasonable discussion as to what the EPV might/should be and what we might use it for?

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            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              yeah, Aldi are doing one for €9.99 including the launch package. they aren't putting them on general sale but keeing them under the counter for special customers - they come with a free bag of Crack...

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              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                ...And at that could we try to get back to the more reasonable discussion as to what the EPV might/should be and what we might use it for?
                for me it has to be an asset that brings a genuine capability to the force commander, and not just a bin for rations and fuel with a flag on the top.

                as Ireland doesn't have the force generation capability to provide the bulk of a force, it needs something that gives the bulk something it doesn't have - that is niche capability, and accepting that the niche capability fits into a wider European scene rather than fitting perfectly within the NS/DF order of battle.

                so, if its a 'constabulary' ship who'se role is counter-piracy, sanctions enforcement, counter-terrorism, sovereignty patrol/enforcement etc.. then it needs the capabilities of a light Frigate - it can defend itself, it has a good ISTAR picture, speed, flight deck, daughter craft, and UAV.

                if its lift then that lift has to be worth bothering with - i know a Mech Inf Coy gets the juices flowing, but in European terms its peanuts, and without the ability to land that force where the force commander needs it, rather than according to what port facilities the local warring parties haven't blown up yet, its all very 'meh..'. that, for me, points to either a POINT (ha! see what i did there...) type vessel that spends its life supporting EU/UN and NATO missions while waving the Irish flag, or a more LPD type vessel.

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                • AIS being a key component, if that's disabled it is blind. Like a plane switching off its transponder and all you've got is SSR.

                  The US & China operate a number of 2/3 Sat formation missions which triangulate any RF transmissions, not just AIS, at sea - but you're talking billions and a global SIGINT capacity.

                  Will rant about SOSUS tech when I'm back at a keyboard

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                  • AIS is only one element of the RMP

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                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      AIS is only one element of the RMP
                      Want to tell us what the other key elements are?

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        AIS is only one element of the RMP
                        I'm not sure that we would be wise to over connect with companies such as SKYTEC in their Coastal Governance projects. We have our own AIS and RMP capability in Haulbowline for many years. We do not need them to suggest patrol duties for our ships. They should hire in vessels to validate capabilities and produce their data from their own resources. Our Sailing Orders were always classified.

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                        • Pym not totally blind. In my day until the CASA patrols were inaugurated, we used our surface radar, listened to Radio frequencies, used DF on transmissions. We were also aware of radar transmissions of vessels using 3cm and 10cm radars. The latest dictum from the electronic navigation/satellite field is to relearn all the traditional ways of navigation as satellite info is easily degraded. Forget about SOSUS it is largely monitored from shore stations requiring many personnel and is now acting as a collecting agency to be accessed and evaluated as the need arises. There are miles of data available on the system on US websites.

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                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            I'm not sure that we would be wise to over connect with companies such as SKYTEC in their Coastal Governance projects. We have our own AIS and RMP capability in Haulbowline for many years. We do not need them to suggest patrol duties for our ships. They should hire in vessels to validate capabilities and produce their data from their own resources. Our Sailing Orders were always classified.
                            AFAIK the NG-RMP is an IMERC project with the NS supporting the demonstrator phase

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                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              Pym not totally blind. In my day until the CASA patrols were inaugurated, we used our surface radar, listened to Radio frequencies, used DF on transmissions. We were also aware of radar transmissions of vessels using 3cm and 10cm radars.
                              I don't doubt that and you can see RF direction finding is still an art practiced by the Navy just by looking at the masts of the P60's. Of course the vessels are also equipped with active radar. The "blind" comment was regarding that Next Generation Recognised Maritime Picture (RMP) project, which only firmly lists AIS as a sensor and then mentions simulations.

                              Regarding SOSUS, standby

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                              • Originally posted by pym View Post
                                Want to tell us what the other key elements are?
                                The whole point of a RMP (or RAP for that matter) is that it integrates data from multiple sources. If it didn't all you'd have to is give each vessel a PC with internet access.

                                A quick Google will tell you the NS one includes shore based radar and CCTV inputs. As well as Lirguard / VMS (not sure if this is fully integrated into the RMP or standalone.

                                It could now (or in the future) include data from:
                                Naval charts and/or GIS
                                NS vessel radar input & imagery (and from other vessels if equipped (eg CIL)
                                CASA radar input & imagery
                                Various databases

                                Last edited by DeV; 3 March 2016, 23:06.

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