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  1. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    And the South Koreans are building the second and third Dokto LHD for half what the Italians are including the CMS from the Daegu Class frigates.

    Unless the INS wants to buy Frigates and completely change its maritime Conops what use is an AOR?

    As we know an enhanced patrol vessel with sealift capabilities design exists - the Absalon Class. Get a licence to build one at a Korean super yard like DSME or HHI or if that is not possible get them to knock a concept clone off using a COTS radar, sensor and weapons fitout similar to the Becketts to keep it under Eur200m.

    The HNoMS Maud beyond the current ward and surgical theatre space does not actually have a permanent 48-bed hospital. The officers lounge, non-crew lounge, and visitors cabins can be converted into standard and Critical Care wards using stowed equipment.
    The conversion thing is fine IMO.

    And I'd keep a decent rader - be that Smart-S like the Absalon or TRS-4D (my preference). As for why AOR - I refer you back to Sparky: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post458646

  2. #2027
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    and with no beds in hospitals you would see it parked up in cork city helping HSE.

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  4. #2028
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    And when all its beds are full, then what?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  5. #2029
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    back to trolleys

  6. #2030
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    RHIBs in this case

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  8. #2031
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    CB 90s

  9. #2032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    The conversion thing is fine IMO.

    And I'd keep a decent rader - be that Smart-S like the Absalon or TRS-4D (my preference). As for why AOR - I refer you back to Sparky: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post458646
    It would no doubt be a very very generous contribution to European and Global maritime operations. But why try to solve other countries capability gaps when Ireland requires its own strategic projection capabilities - such as self-deployment of a company group.

    However, I think you may find that there is more to replenishment at sea operations than simply having a ship at sea. Even putting aside the vessels at sea operations to one side there is still the whole complexity and cost of additional base infrastructure involved - think tens of millions that has to be in place as part of the cost of ownership. The storage, disposal and pumping systems of a range of liquids both fresh and contaminated relating to MARPOL and no doubt EU environmental laws in your neck of the woods cannot be avoided and will be dramatically scaled up. The ongoing cost in looking after all this once the huge investment alone is also not cheap and the compliance paperwork on just the H&S side will do your head in. That is why some navies don't have a RAS capability. The forecast budget outputs for operating both the coming RAN and RNZN replenishment vessels are three times the cost of of an OPV. I have no doubt the above issues are well known to the DoD and INS and if not Treasury officials will soon discover this.
    Last edited by Anzac; 26th March 2018 at 02:34.

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  11. #2033
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    Why the obsession with a hospital ship? Where are the medical personnel going to come from to man it? Are they going to be permenantly on the books of the DoD, and in which case what are they going to do between (probably once in a blue moon) deployments (or indeed, who is going to fill their roles while they are deployed?). If Reserves are used, what will be the situation in deploying Reserves overseas?

    What environment is it going to be used in that a land-based Field Hospital could’nt deploy in for a lot cheaper than the creation of a purpose-built ship?

    I don’t know if these questions have been asked or answered in the thread, but it is a serious consideration.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 26th March 2018 at 05:27.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  13. #2034
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    I understand the original suggestion was to fit the mobile field hospital (which comes as a selection of interconnected TEUs) aboard the ship, connected to the services required, when reqired, say for a natural disaster somewhere or for a fast evacuation of Irish citizens from a troubled foreign state, such as the libya evacuation which we were lucky to be able to piggyback with the RN on site.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  15. #2035
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I understand the original suggestion was to fit the mobile field hospital (which comes as a selection of interconnected TEUs) aboard the ship, connected to the services required, when reqired, say for a natural disaster somewhere or for a fast evacuation of Irish citizens from a troubled foreign state, such as the libya evacuation which we were lucky to be able to piggyback with the RN on site.
    Fair enough, if the space is there it’s a good use of it. However, I’m still wondering where the appropriatly trained staff are going to come from. Does the DF have the establishment of a Field Hospital?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  16. #2036
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    On paper it used to. That said, with the equipment aboard it does not need to be used by military personell. MSF come to mind in extreme situations.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  18. #2037
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    And, of course, other people have field hospitals as well - there would, to make a hypothetical example of an Irish AOR/other logs spt ship, by no physical or interoperability problem with an NS vessel hosting a French FH with a Norwegian Marine Coy providing security and an AC ground set doing the aviation support, or even a German det of ground crew and helicopters.

    Send it to the Med for 6 months and it would be completely worked up and problems iron out by October - possibly even the AC det...

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  20. #2038
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    You were going grand till you mentioned the AC det. The AC are only capable of deploying outside the don if their FOB is on a main road back to D22.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  22. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Fair enough, if the space is there it’s a good use of it. However, I’m still wondering where the appropriatly trained staff are going to come from. Does the DF have the establishment of a Field Hospital?
    Eh no

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    On paper it used to. That said, with the equipment aboard it does not need to be used by military personell. MSF come to mind in extreme situations.
    Absolutely but NGOs don’t generally want to play with the military

    Some won’t even get involved with CIMIC ex’s (never mind ops)

  23. #2040
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    Sorry, I’m dragging this off-thread, but I have remembered there is a precident for NGO’s operating integrated into a military in a medical setting. Medical services for the Italian Armed Forces are operated by the Order of Malta.

    Thinking outside the box a bit, Ireland had an active Order of Malta, the operations in the Med are in liaison with the Italian Navy, members of the Irish OOM are also signed up to the Civil Defence organisation - there are lots of strings that could be pulled together if the Will was there...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  25. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Eh no



    Absolutely but NGOs don’t generally want to play with the military

    Some won’t even get involved with CIMIC ex’s (never mind ops)
    Having a facility such as a HADR capable ship allows for inter agency planning and mutual assistance in the event of an urgent incident at home or elsewhere. In emergencies certain non-military medical expertise may have to be requested from HSE/Government for the period of the task.
    Our navy has it's own fuel and lubricant storage ashore. We dispose of waste materials as approved by International Standards. I'm not certain how today's waste handling is processed but now in addition to dry waste , food contaminated waste needs to be refrigerated for the duration until disposed of ashore. Surface ships produce about 1.5 lbs per person per day of disposable waste, or a tonne for a 28 day trip with 50 crew. Obviously medical waste has to be specially handled, sharps etc., some can be processed into sewage tanks for disposal. There are HADR operations manuals available including on-line from the RNZN. Camp Bastion was operated by mainly trauma hospital staffs and specialists. We should be no different in planned incidents.

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  27. #2042
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    Obviously medical waste has to be specially handled, sharps etc., some can be processed into sewage tanks for disposal.
    All medical waste is exported from the country to be incinerated, illegal to add it to anything but medical waste.
    Time for another break I think......

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  29. #2043
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    All medical waste is exported from the country to be incinerated, illegal to add it to anything but medical waste.
    al

    It is exported as the EPA and political spokesmen overturned the procedures put in place by individual hospitals. Some have their own incinerators but parallel with that you have specialist waste disposal companies who provide bins and wish to keep their handling chain intact and add cost to the whole bloody business. Ships follow Marpol Regulations as amended from time to time and Port regulations as applicable.

  30. #2044
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    Some have their own incinerators but parallel with that you have specialist waste disposal companies who provide bins and wish to keep their handling chain intact and add cost to the whole bloody business
    None of the incinerators that were used met with the emissions levels required around the destruction of medical waste, hence it needed to be outsourced, you need to understand what medical waste is and how significant an issue is. There are sites with items in storage that cannot be economically got rid off.

    Take for instance a hospital mattress bed, should that be contaminated by bodily fluids it becomes medical waste... how does it be come contaminated when there is a rubber membrane around it?... Doctors sticking needles in them!

    A number of years ago hospitals had 40 ft containers full of old xrays that were expensive to destroy due to the metal content... until someone discovered there is a degree of pure silver in the films.. hey presto, couldn't get rid of them fast enough!

    And then all the cytotoxic waste.....related to chemo and radium therapy.....Medical waste , big business.
    Time for another break I think......

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  32. #2045
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    This is no longer a topic, it's a train wreck! We are talking about a class of ship that it seems remarkable clear is never going to happen. Now we are on the disposal of medical waste, Gwad knows where it's going next!!!
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  34. #2046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    This is no longer a topic, it's a train wreck! We are talking about a class of ship that it seems remarkable clear is never going to happen. Now we are on the disposal of medical waste, Gwad knows where it's going next!!!
    Someone started down the Hospital ship route... blame Enda Kenny!
    Time for another break I think......

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  36. #2047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    This is no longer a topic, it's a train wreck! We are talking about a class of ship that it seems remarkable clear is never going to happen. Now we are on the disposal of medical waste, Gwad knows where it's going next!!!
    bit like eithne, class of ship that did not fullfill her role with no helis no surface to air radar . so why would they go down that route again,

  37. #2048
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    bit like eithne, class of ship that did not fullfill her role with no helis no surface to air radar . so why would they go down that route again,
    Eithne did fulfill her intended role , albeit briefly until policy and technology overtook the tools that made her unique

    http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/product205.html
    Time for another break I think......

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  39. #2049
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    how do you make that out, no heli no air defence radar , dont see alot in technology gains in that. if anything stripping her down to BIG PV nothing more pure waste.

  40. #2050
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    how do you make that out, no heli no air defence radar , dont see alot in technology gains in that. if anything stripping her down to BIG PV nothing more pure waste.
    Because it did have a heli (wasn’t deployed very often but it was there) and it did have an air search radar (which AFAIK was linked to the 57mm)

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