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  • The original OPV series from Damen looked OK, nothing to shout about but the new OPV2 with their SeaAxe bows are for my taste ugly.
    So far I have only seen the OPV2-1800 does anyone have views for the other OPV2 versions.

    Rather than the OPV2600 I would go for the slightly smaller OPV2400 version, it still has 3 TEU positions compared to 5 on the bigger sister but it has the aft docking ramp! And do we need 5 TEU positions?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      An full CIWS is the minimum we should have on a ship in such waters but I am sure the bean counters will notice other ships operating in the area have even less capa as us. I think on the NGO vessels operating there which I can only say is totally irresponsible.

      As for the drugs smugglers we see they have moved to mini-subs to move their stuff into the USA, how long before they use the same for EU?


      There is no way any MRV/EPV will get any of the weapon/sensor systems that are being mentioned here. There simply is or wont be that kind of money in the NS budget.

      The current fit on OPVs/CPVs is going to be standard on all NS ships into the future.

      The best we could hope for is remotely operated medium calibre weapon to replace the rheinmetalls. That would add a level of accuracy to those weapns at least.

      Comment


      • I posen the question why the 3sbs were costing us now over 200m when they were priced at just over 160m incl GFE. The difference would have paid for a new Phalanx for each of them!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
          There is no way any MRV/EPV will get any of the weapon/sensor systems that are being mentioned here. There simply is or wont be that kind of money in the NS budget.

          The current fit on OPVs/CPVs is going to be standard on all NS ships into the future.

          The best we could hope for is remotely operated medium calibre weapon to replace the rheinmetalls. That would add a level of accuracy to those weapns at least.
          Sadly, I expect you're right.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pym View Post
            Sadly, I expect you're right.

            If you look at the weapons fit on the current ships, it’s actually ok for the threat assessment in home waters and some might argue the 76mm is overkill for fisheries protection and other coast guard type work.
            In deciding NS ships specifications for every ship since Deidre it’s not what the department of defence or the naval service want that's been important. It’s actually other government department’s requirements that pushes defence procurement, and the key departments for the naval service are traditionally marine and now foreign affairs.

            Back in 1968 defence wanted to replace the corvettes with one ASW capable vessel and two fisheries protectors, but ended up with fisheries protection vessels after Marine piped up. So when discussing what the EPV should look like you have to consider what does the department of foreign affairs think we’ll have to do over the next twenty or so years. In the 1960’s they wanted to play a part in the UN and defence spending on the army reflected that. From the early the 1970’ to early 2000’s it was the north that totally dominated their thinking. Now the north is settled and the border is gone, the political situation and our relationship with Europe have changed out of all recognition since the EPV specs were published in 2007.

            DFA used to think that they could get away with a mechanised battalion overseas with the un which could be used in a mid-1990’s Balkan peace ops mission if necessary, hence the mowag procurement. Increasingly with a resurgent Russia, and the crisis in the Middle East they’ll not get away with minimal spending on defence if they want to remain in the EU, (which they do naturally). They used to rely on the British veto at an EU level on defence matters, but once they leave, and going by the polls they will in the next two weeks, then Ireland will be isolated, and exposed if we claim neutrality.

            If foreign affairs think that EU Common Security and Defence Ppolicy is a reality and we’ll have to contribute to EU defence and Brexit will make that more likely, the fit of the EPV will reflect that. That’s the most likely scenario. Look at this month an Cosantoir, that’s the future for the naval service, (20 years ago they couldn’t send an observer to a NATO exercise in the Baltic). If not marine will get its way and it will be a large frigate sized fisheries protection vessel with a deck to carry cargo on like in the first page of this thread.

            Personally I think they’ll replace Eithne with a European design around 2025 like the Italian navy PPA or The French FTI classes of light frigate if DFA push for it. Otherwise they’ll build a frigate sized opv.
            Last edited by paul g; 13 June 2016, 20:52.

            Comment


            • Rather than trying to redesign a Dampen OPV why not just purpose the "baby" Dampen XO 115, a bit larger than our OPVs, but only about 7 metres longer than Holland, good for humanitarian role also, should also ease training if the NS went for the XO131 (or a stretched version thereof if that's possible) as the MRV?
              Last edited by ias; 13 June 2016, 21:04.

              Comment


              • I actually wondered if the reasoning behind the counter mine vessels appearing in the white paper had been based on EU input/pressure.

                I'm curious to see how it all plays out

                Comment


                • Personally I think they’ll replace Eithne with a European design around 2025 like the Italian navy PPA or The French FTI classes of light frigate if DFA push for it. Otherwise they’ll build a frigate sized opv
                  Agreed.

                  But I think they will tend toward a large OPV with heli deck, no hanger and a weapons fit similar to what we have now. Cost multiplies hugely at the mention of the word 'frigate' where 'patrol vessel' tends to be somewhat cheaper.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pym View Post
                    I actually wondered if the reasoning behind the counter mine vessels appearing in the white paper had been based on EU input/pressure.

                    I'm curious to see how it all plays out
                    IEDs are also found at sea

                    Conventional mines are a big threat to trade

                    Ireland is at the forefront of C-IEDs on land in the EDA so makes sense to branch out (also could be good for IMERC).

                    Also possibly means smaller vessels for inshore work

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      Agreed.

                      But I think they will tend toward a large OPV with heli deck, no hanger and a weapons fit similar to what we have now. Cost multiplies hugely at the mention of the word 'frigate' where 'patrol vessel' tends to be somewhat cheaper.
                      from what i've seen of costs bandied about, it looks like you could get a 2,500 - 3,000 ton large OPV with flight deck, radars, FCS, CIWS and 76mm with guided ammunition for €120m or so, but calling it a Frigate and sticking a hanger and a SSM system on it appears to take the price to about €300m...

                      personally, within either an Irish or a European context i see no point trying to chase the capabilities of the big boys - Ireland is never going to field a ship that comes within a million miles of a Horizon, F125 or T26, and if theres a real chance of serious fisticuffs, they are going to be the vessels that get sent, not some uprated coat guard cutter thats vunerable to pretty much anything and with little usable offensive capability.

                      that said, the uprated coast guard cutter has a great deal of use in the pretty much permanent counter-terrorism/smuggling/piracy missions that look to be on the cards - it just needs to be able to operate with other ships - radars, Link systems, and ideally a flight deck - and to be able to defend itself against likely threats.

                      Comment


                      • Excellent post Paul but in some ways I disagree

                        Originally posted by paul g View Post
                        Now the north is settled and the border is gone, the political situation and our relationship with Europe have changed out of all recognition since the EPV specs were published in 2007.
                        The RIRA etc are still around and we could find ourselves bordering a non-EU country in 2 years.

                        DFA used to think that they could get away with a mechanised battalion overseas with the un which could be used in a mid-1990’s Balkan peace ops mission if necessary, hence the mowag procurement. Increasingly with a resurgent Russia, and the crisis in the Middle East they’ll not get away with minimal spending on defence if they want to remain in the EU, (which they do naturally).
                        correct only it could be a NATO/EU mission now

                        They used to rely on the British veto at an EU level on defence matters, but once they leave, and going by the polls they will in the next two weeks, then Ireland will be isolated, and exposed if we claim neutrality.
                        we still have the triple lock and look at the larger opposition parties (eg Sinn Fein). We aren't the only neutral in the EU but the others have the ability to defend themselves and are much closer to Russia.

                        If foreign affairs think that EU Common Security and Defence Ppolicy is a reality and we’ll have to contribute to EU defence and Brexit will make that more likely, the fit of the EPV will reflect that. That’s the most likely scenario. Look at this month an Cosantoir, that’s the future for the naval service, (20 years ago they couldn’t send an observer to a NATO exercise in the Baltic). If not marine will get its way and it will be a large frigate sized fisheries protection vessel with a deck to carry cargo on like in the first page of this thread.

                        Personally I think they’ll replace Eithne with a European design around 2025 like the Italian navy PPA or The French FTI classes of light frigate if DFA push for it. Otherwise they’ll build a frigate sized opv.[/QUOTE]

                        My personal view is we can't afford a token frigate and it would only be a token, if Russia moved west we would need multiple frigates to defend Irish waters (never mind forward deploy). The reality is that the NS would find it hard to man a vessel with a crew of over 60.

                        The NS is multi-role agency so what roles may/will an EPV/MRV be called upon to carry out by Government apart from the traditional & conventional roles that could influence design?

                        EU/UN tasks could require increased armament, protection and sensors
                        The seas we are going to be policing bigger seas

                        Comment


                        • Lets have a quick reality check here.
                          The original title of the thread is "EPV for naval service". Some seem to think is says "minesweeping battleship destroyer frigate submarine for naval service".

                          It was a suggestion, that the NS would seek an Extended Patrol Vessel. A patrol vessel that could do more than the existing vessel. Patrol further out. To do this it would be bigger than the current OPV. The extra space could be used for something else, such as carrying troops or equipment, or humanitarian relief.
                          No more than that.

                          Those suggesting we up arm, up armour and up sensor existing OPVs should keep this in mind.

                          HMAS Adelaide, the RANs latest LHD. Largest vessels in the RAN fleet.
                          Armament?
                          4x Typhoon 25mm remote weapon system. Same as seen on the Aussie OPV.
                          6x 12.7mm machine guns.

                          Sensors?
                          Sea Giraffe ABM Radar, Saab 9LV combat management system.

                          Decoys?
                          Nixie torpedo decoy, Nulka missile decoy.
                          Nothing else. No CIWS, no RAM, no missile defence whatsoever. And this is a vessel that will be working in harms way, alone, as did the ships it replaces.

                          If it is going somewhere more dangerous, it brings proper escort vessels with it. the RAN are in the process of getting Hobart class destroyers, with Phased array radar, VLS Standard and Sea Sparrow missiles, Harpoon missiles, 5 inch gun, Torpedo launchers, Phalanx CIWS, and of course 25mm Typhoon autocannons..
                          That's how you do it. Don't up arm a small ship. Build ships for their intended task. Frigates and destroyers do frigate and destroyer jobs. OPVs do OPV jobs. EPVs do EPV jobs. If the threat requires a destroyer, don't send an LHD or a OPV.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            Those suggesting we up arm, up armour and up sensor existing OPVs should keep this in mind.

                            HMAS Adelaide, the RANs latest LHD. Largest vessels in the RAN fleet.
                            Armament?
                            4x Typhoon 25mm remote weapon system. Same as seen on the Aussie OPV.
                            6x 12.7mm machine guns.

                            Sensors?
                            Sea Giraffe ABM Radar, Saab 9LV combat management system.

                            Decoys?
                            Nixie torpedo decoy, Nulka missile decoy.
                            Nothing else. No CIWS, no RAM, no missile defence whatsoever. And this is a vessel that will be working in harms way, alone, as did the ships it replaces.
                            Point well made, but even without CIWS or RAM, the L01 fit is in a completely different league compared to current NS vessels.

                            In my landlubbing opinion the existing standard NS fit is not suitable for something like an EPV, or for a military vessel which could potentially find itself in hostile waters.

                            I don't think any sane person is agitating to have each NS vessel capable of defending itself against exocets & shkvals or knocking PAK-FA's out of the sky and sending Akula's to the bottom of the ocean.

                            But if a military vessel is going to be undertaking militarily hazardous operations - air search radar, decoys, rws, rwr/esm, datalinks - this is baseline situational awareness and defence which would not cost the earth, yet offer a capability an order of magnitude beyond the current NS vessels can do.

                            Those systems wont turn an EPV into a Frigate, Corvette or Destroyer. It will simply be a more capable patrol vessel with a chance at survival in something other than a benign threat environment.

                            Leaving the shiny sensors and systems to one side though - was that L01 built to commercial or naval standards?
                            Would it be fundamentally flawed to stick the above equipment on something not built to naval damage control standards?
                            Last edited by pym; 14 June 2016, 01:38.

                            Comment


                            • To be fair, that's because HMAS Adelaide would have an escort group consisting of a mix of AD and ASW/ASuW frigates if deployed somewhere where a potential threat had been identified. I think the point being rightly made is that the thread has moved away from the platform and is focusing on the various shiny bits that get stuck on it.
                              If an EPV is intended as an OPV with longer legs, then what you currently stick on them with some minor changes is fit for purpose. If the E in EPV means Enhanced rather than extended, then a modest increase in self protection (at a minimum systems that give you awareness of impending threats) is probably required.

                              Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                              Lets have a quick reality check here.
                              The original title of the thread is "EPV for naval service". Some seem to think is says "minesweeping battleship destroyer frigate submarine for naval service".

                              It was a suggestion, that the NS would seek an Extended Patrol Vessel. A patrol vessel that could do more than the existing vessel. Patrol further out. To do this it would be bigger than the current OPV. The extra space could be used for something else, such as carrying troops or equipment, or humanitarian relief.
                              No more than that.

                              Those suggesting we up arm, up armour and up sensor existing OPVs should keep this in mind.

                              HMAS Adelaide, the RANs latest LHD. Largest vessels in the RAN fleet.
                              Armament?
                              4x Typhoon 25mm remote weapon system. Same as seen on the Aussie OPV.
                              6x 12.7mm machine guns.

                              Sensors?
                              Sea Giraffe ABM Radar, Saab 9LV combat management system.

                              Decoys?
                              Nixie torpedo decoy, Nulka missile decoy.
                              Nothing else. No CIWS, no RAM, no missile defence whatsoever. And this is a vessel that will be working in harms way, alone, as did the ships it replaces.

                              If it is going somewhere more dangerous, it brings proper escort vessels with it. the RAN are in the process of getting Hobart class destroyers, with Phased array radar, VLS Standard and Sea Sparrow missiles, Harpoon missiles, 5 inch gun, Torpedo launchers, Phalanx CIWS, and of course 25mm Typhoon autocannons..
                              That's how you do it. Don't up arm a small ship. Build ships for their intended task. Frigates and destroyers do frigate and destroyer jobs. OPVs do OPV jobs. EPVs do EPV jobs. If the threat requires a destroyer, don't send an LHD or a OPV.

                              Comment


                              • Well according to WP15 it is a MRV with a helicopter and freight carrying capability.

                                I agree if we are ever to deploy what is likely to be the biggest vessel the NS has ever had, the risk assessment will define where it goes.

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