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  1. #2126
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Where it comes undone is when the customer constantly changes the specs.
    Or starts messing around with schedules to hide budget issues.

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  3. #2127
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    One thing about the River Batch 2, QE2, Type 26 and Type 31 classes.

    A primary aim of these is to keep British shipyards open

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  5. #2128
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    One thing about the River Batch 2, QE2, Type 26 and Type 31 classes.

    A primary aim of these is to keep British shipyards open
    Well the QE's and the 26's make sense (to varying degrees depending on your views), the Batch 2's and the 31's on the other hand are just to keep yards open alright.

  6. #2129
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    Latest batch of Rivers are going to give british yards plenty of work in attempts to make them seaworthy after they have been launched...
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  8. #2130
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    No one has to deal with a number of yards, there is normally a prime contractor or a consortium set-up a company to manage the overall project. The UK carriers are built by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance whch includes BAe Systems, Babcock (Rosyth and Appledore), Cammell Laird, Govern Shipbuilding, A&P Tyne, Thales and the MoD.
    http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.co.uk/
    The contract was done with the ACA and not each individual partner and so it is with many projects today. The French/Italian FREMM frigates, the German Type212/214 subs, the German K130 corvettes all are consortium for a particular project. And as long as the customer clearly defines what they want, when they want it and what they are willing to pay this type of arrangement works well. Where it comes undone is when the customer constantly changes the specs.
    Take your point about need for a unifying contractor, who should have the prime capability to produce a Naval Ship whether Logs or frontline. Often delays are budgetry an can be due to change of Govt. or replacement of a supportive Minister. By long fingering , delivery payments are shifted to another financial year. I knew an engineer who served his full 5 year apprenticeship on the building of HMS Eagle. She took 9 YEARS to complete. Not to be too bloody minded, our Irish Contracts had performance penalties if the builder didn't meet Dates. So basically , does the customer want everything on time or can money be diverted pro temp for Political emergencies/priorities??

  9. #2131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Take your point about need for a unifying contractor, who should have the prime capability to produce a Naval Ship whether Logs or frontline. Often delays are budgetry an can be due to change of Govt. or replacement of a supportive Minister. By long fingering , delivery payments are shifted to another financial year. I knew an engineer who served his full 5 year apprenticeship on the building of HMS Eagle. She took 9 YEARS to complete. Not to be too bloody minded, our Irish Contracts had performance penalties if the builder didn't meet Dates. So basically , does the customer want everything on time or can money be diverted pro temp for Political emergencies/priorities??
    Her sister Ark Royal (R09) took 12 years to be commissioned! But it was still faster than Hermes (R12) which took 15 years, even the current carriers are taking 8-9 to be commissioned and a couple of year more until they are fully operational.

  10. #2132
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    A one year budget cycle is too for strategic projects, most take 10 years or more to be finished and any interuption only causes cost increases.
    I would like to see a rolling 10 year defence plan with ring fenced budget for the strategic projects, with a 5 year review.

  11. #2133
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    Hold on a second, all of the post war carriers took that long because the UK was utterly shagged from the war and couldn't afford them, nothing to do with any production issues.

  12. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    A one year budget cycle is too for strategic projects, most take 10 years or more to be finished and any interuption only causes cost increases.
    I would like to see a rolling 10 year defence plan with ring fenced budget for the strategic projects, with a 5 year review.
    Believe it or not there is longer term planning and prioritisation

    Problem is budgets

  13. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Hold on a second, all of the post war carriers took that long because the UK was utterly shagged from the war and couldn't afford them, nothing to do with any production issues.
    It was just to show Eagle was not the longest.

    If we want to look at drawn out financing then the French are pretty good during the recent past. The carrier CDG took 12 years and major re-work before she entered service but nothing compares to the complete mess made by the Polish with the MEKO100. Also the brand new German F-125 multi-role frigates were refused by the German Navy in part due to a persistent 1.3° list to starboard and that on the back of the issues with the K-130 corvettes.

  14. #2136
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It was just to show Eagle was not the longest.

    If we want to look at drawn out financing then the French are pretty good during the recent past. The carrier CDG took 12 years and major re-work before she entered service but nothing compares to the complete mess made by the Polish with the MEKO100. Also the brand new German F-125 multi-role frigates were refused by the German Navy in part due to a persistent 1.3° list to starboard and that on the back of the issues with the K-130 corvettes.
    I know it was to illustrate a point but in fairness post war UK ship building was a mess (and Post war UK naval planning a disaster arguable up till now), but yeah that Polish hull might be a record considering what they planned, spent and got. wonder how their plan for home build subs will go (given the recent Spanish feck up), and the Germans have some major issues within their industry and supply chains.

  15. #2137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I know it was to illustrate a point but in fairness post war UK ship building was a mess (and Post war UK naval planning a disaster arguable up till now), but yeah that Polish hull might be a record considering what they planned, spent and got. wonder how their plan for home build subs will go (given the recent Spanish feck up), and the Germans have some major issues within their industry and supply chains.
    Some of it is due to the benefit of modern project management run by Business school graduates with no technical background, although in a lot of cases it is bureaucrat who have come from the same business schools!

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  17. #2138
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Some of it is due to the benefit of modern project management run by Business school graduates with no technical background, although in a lot of cases it is bureaucrat who have come from the same business schools!
    Perhaps, but the Spanish building subs that can't surface so need to be lengthened and then not checking to see if said longer subs can fit in the naval bases dockyard is out there though.

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  19. #2139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Perhaps, but the Spanish building subs that can't surface so need to be lengthened and then not checking to see if said longer subs can fit in the naval bases dockyard is out there though.
    When we build our MRV we should ensure that we correctly identify all the fitted systems so that we can meet the power required for propulsion and Naval outfits. It is paramount to know the outfit so that some capacity remains in reserve when all is operating at full toss at sea. We don't want the Galley getting shut down when you power up a search radar. If you have 3+1 harbour generators then you should run comfortably on one for peacetime steaming and two with all systems go. Identifying outfits early on allows both sides to get key equipments lined up for timely installation. Positioning heavy items off the centerline eg Galley Cookers must be counterbalanced by something solid or you could wind up with a permanent list needing to be corrected with liquids. Items arriving late often require opening access routes through a closed hull with hull butchery.

  20. #2140
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    Eithne's galley had a double deck stone lined bakers oven on the port side , is that why she had a list to port .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  22. #2141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Hold on a second, all of the post war carriers took that long because the UK was utterly shagged from the war and couldn't afford them, nothing to do with any production issues.
    There were serious steel shortages after the war , well in to the 1950s and given that the RN had a full compliment of ships at the time, replacement vessels were not given priority. Also it became very visible very fast that the types of ships operated previoulsy were hopelessly out of date and new designs would be needed.

    In typical fashion the new designs were put out to committees which in the case of some types took 10 years to come up with vialble designs before any steel was cut. The Eagle and The Ark royal were altered os much during the construction phases they cost about ten times more than that which they had been budget for and every alteration took time.

    Aircraft and electronic and engineering develpments that the carriers were often far behind where they needed to be.

    Utility classes such as theType 12 frigates and the older conversions were built with singular purposes in mind purely as either anti aircraft or anti submarine vessels, and then arrived the Leanders and they tried to stuff everything in sight on board to realise the hulls and propulsion systems were sadly dating back to the early 1950s........lets build and desigh privately... along cone the Type 21s, again good ships initially but costly and very limited until you load Exocet and Sea wolf on... and then tey begin to age rapidly and get sold on.

    Put certain governments in power and they will sell any useful asset and then refuse to replace them.

    Steel , Money, Committees....and politics... the ruination of the RN.
    Time for another break I think......

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  24. #2142
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    nah... the bond store was installed to counter act that......used to empty so fast she used to gain speed in the water!
    Time for another break I think......

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  26. #2143
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    nah... the bond store was installed to counter act that......used to empty so fast she used to gain speed in the water!
    Galley cooker went in when the housing was being placed on the first W/T decking. It weighed some tonnes and AFAIK it was allowed for. A list could have occurred after 1990's when the redacteurs got loose NOT in the flying days. BZ 34 Y.O. in November this year.

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  28. #2144
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post

    Aircraft and electronic and engineering develpments that the carriers were often far behind where they needed to be.

    Utility classes such as theType 12 frigates and the older conversions were built with singular purposes in mind purely as either anti aircraft or anti submarine vessels, and then arrived the Leanders and they tried to stuff everything in sight on board to realise the hulls and propulsion systems were sadly dating back to the early 1950s........lets build and desigh privately... along cone the Type 21s, again good ships initially but costly and very limited until you load Exocet and Sea wolf on... and then tey begin to age rapidly and get sold on.

    Put certain governments in power and they will sell any useful asset and then refuse to replace them.

    Steel , Money, Committees....and politics... the ruination of the RN.
    All of those things!. The critical thing to remember in dragged out ship building or assembling any item stuffed with technical equipment, is that a technological generation is about 5 years. If you want to be up-to-date, radar wise, you either build quickly or plan for a new radar footprint that hasn't been yet developed. All adds considerable costs plus weight , dimensional, EMC , and power requiremnts.

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  30. #2145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    All of those things!. The critical thing to remember in dragged out ship building or assembling any item stuffed with technical equipment, is that a technological generation is about 5 years. If you want to be up-to-date, radar wise, you either build quickly or plan for a new radar footprint that hasn't been yet developed. All adds considerable costs plus weight , dimensional, EMC , and power requiremnts.
    If I could continue, we are now at an Naval Advent where the Irish Navy has the largest OPV force in Western Europe with 6 ships younger than 19 years old and 3 more than 30 years old. We must fill in some major naval capabilities in our next choices to ensure we can meet our obligations as a bastion island on the Western Approaches to Europe. Capability must be continuous and not subject to major disruption or redacting dependent on a whimsical choice of ship. We must try to construct responses similar and complementing those of our European partners with some emphasis also on HADR.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 12th August 2018 at 08:43.

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  32. #2146
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    Technically not, the Spanish already match us with 6 BAM's within 11 years with a further 6 planned for their second batch.

  33. #2147
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    Technically am is correct, the sixth BAM will not enter service until Jan/Feb 2019 at which we will have 7 OPV's in service.
    Originally the Spanish did plan to build 2 batches each of 6, however the first batch was for 4 and from the second batch so far for 2. Originally there was also to be a logistics support vessel, a underwater rescue vessel, a oceangraphic/hydrograpic vessel and an intelligence gathering vessel. It seems like these latter vessels will not be built as there is no indication of any order being placed.

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  35. #2148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If I could continue, we are now at an Naval Advent where the Irish Navy has the largest OPV force in Western Europe with 6 ships younger than 19 years old and 3 more than 30 years old. We must fill in some major naval capabilities in our next choices to ensure we can meet our obligations as a bastion island on the Western Approaches to Europe. Capability must be continuous and not subject to major disruption or redacting dependent on a whimsical choice of ship. We must try to construct responses similar and complementing those of our European partners with some emphasis also on HADR.
    To continue discussion, we must , as hulls reach 90m+ , bridge the gap between the old OPV and the modern Frigate. Bigger units are capable of being fitted with sufficient role capability to function within the frigate role. We must move beyond being a single instrument band.

  36. #2149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    To continue discussion, we must , as hulls reach 90m+ , bridge the gap between the old OPV and the modern Frigate. Bigger units are capable of being fitted with sufficient role capability to function within the frigate role. We must move beyond being a single instrument band.
    I heard earlier this week, from a source I consider very reliable, that the proposed Extended Patrol/Multi Role vessel has increased in displacement from just under 4000 tonnes as outlined in the original EPV RFT to a vessel of up to 9000 tonnes displ. A budget of €200m was also mentioned. Double that being considered in 2006. This opens us to many more options. Presumably the NS have given up on the idea of fitting it in the Basin, given that there wil be plenty of available quay space in Cork City by the time the vessel would be in service.
    This brings us up to the range of the Damen Enforcer LPD9000, for example. Not for a minute suggesting this is where we are going, but it definitely broadens the available designs already in service.
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  38. #2150
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    I heard earlier this week, from a source I consider very reliable, that the proposed Extended Patrol/Multi Role vessel has increased in displacement from just under 4000 tonnes as outlined in the original EPV RFT to a vessel of up to 9000 tonnes displ. A budget of €200m was also mentioned. Double that being considered in 2006. This opens us to many more options. Presumably the NS have given up on the idea of fitting it in the Basin, given that there wil be plenty of available quay space in Cork City by the time the vessel would be in service.
    This brings us up to the range of the Damen Enforcer LPD9000, for example. Not for a minute suggesting this is where we are going, but it definitely broadens the available designs already in service.
    Wisdom would dictate that vessel should fit in the spaces available and under our secure control , This would include drydock , maintenance , and lay-up when required for refits etc. Cork City quays are not the answer other than the bits having gate and guardable entry.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 21st August 2018 at 20:14.

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