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  • The mediterranean overseas experience must surely have underlined the usefulness of naval aviation in the rescue role.

    Dev, from your answer I can tell you have not been to Haulbowline. The powerlines are someone elses problem, they do not interfere with current flight operations on the island. They do however restrict approaches to the main square from the south and prevent use of the most ideal area to operate helis from, near the old Water tank/Marine barracks in the centre of the island. There is no current need for a white letter H painted on mettalled ground while the playing pitch is still in use, as this provides to everywhere within the island, while still within a secure area.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • I know there is a grand plan for the old Irish Steel site with a community park on the cards, but in the event the NS did go down the route of placing Helicopters on ships, would this land not be better used to operate and maintain aircraft from? It would also have the added benefit of using the Island for military only operations, meaning you could keep those nosy civilians away. Also, what candidate aircraft would be on the table? I'm guessing something in the vein of the AW 159 would be top of the wish list, given it's track record.
      Last edited by ODIN; 30 December 2016, 12:49.
      What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
        I know there is a grand plan for the old Irish Steel site with a community park on the cards, but in the event the NS did go down the route of placing Helicopters on ships, would this land not be better used to operate and maintain aircraft from? It would also have the added benefit of using the Island for military only operations, meaning you could keep those nosy civilians away. Also, what candidate aircraft would be on the table? I'm guessing something in the vein of the AW 159 would be top of the wish list, given it's track record.
        The grand plan is multi-faceted. The public park currently under development is merely a solution to the east tip problem. WHile the major plan includes public (corporate) use of some of the former ISPAT site, there is still much of the ground earmarked for military use. There is even enough space for a fixed wing airstrip, and alignment suits prevailing conditions.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
          The mediterranean overseas experience must surely have underlined the usefulness of naval aviation in the rescue role.

          Dev, from your answer I can tell you have not been to Haulbowline. The powerlines are someone elses problem, they do not interfere with current flight operations on the island. They do however restrict approaches to the main square from the south and prevent use of the most ideal area to operate helis from, near the old Water tank/Marine barracks in the centre of the island. There is no current need for a white letter H painted on mettalled ground while the playing pitch is still in use, as this provides to everywhere within the island, while still within a secure area.
          So they are an obstacle and restriction then.

          Power lines are a major concern for any helo pilot. They may not be on your planned approach or departure, in an emergency that can change extremely quickly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
            Pretty much debunks the vessel size/sea state argument for the non continuation of helicopter ops, leaving the obvious institutional deficiencies and preference for SAR in Baldonnel as the likely scenario.

            On a related note but somewhat of a tangent to the thread, having seen in recent years the successful basing of helicopters at an off airport barracks location in Athlone, is there scope/space for a theoretical future
            basing of helicopters at Haulbowline?
            The Air Corps has a long history of basing helicopters in Army barracks and Camps for operational needs. The Alouettes based in Finner and Monaghan for over 30 years for border operational needs being the longest deployment. It was originally planned that once the Dauphins became operational ready for operating from LE Eithne that one of the two navalised variants would be based in Cork airport when not embarked. But by that time political interference over SAR saw a Dauphin been based in Waterford instead meaning no Dauphin available for Cork.

            The Air Corps will base an aircraft anywhere were there is an operational need, but what is the operational need at Haulbowline today? The Naval Services decision to have no heli deck and hanger on LE Roisin and subsequently was the nail in the coffin for future shipborne heli ops. If there is an operational need for a heli deployment overseas and where there is no available land base then a ship could be the only option. But any future shipborne heli ops from a Naval Service ship could be a decade away.

            The Air Corps now needs to restart training for operating from ships, its the norm for most armies and air forces to train in joint helicopter-ship ops. The Air Corps in the past carried out training landing Gazelles on the deck of Eithne. The Cypriots regularly carry out joint helicopter-ship training with their AW139's on the decks of ships from many nations and I've in the past posted videos of it on here. They have also carried out Medevacs from the decks of ships deployed with UNIFIL. There are many foreign naval ships that visit Ireland every year that would offer a great opportunity for training with both the EC135's and AW139's. Proficiency in shipboard heli ops should be a goal in the advancement of Air Corps capabilities for support of ARW ops, Medevacs, troop and equipment transfer, overseas ops etc.

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            • Next time the SAR contract is up have same under operational control of NS.

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              • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post

                The Naval Services decision to have no heli deck and hanger on LE Roisin and subsequently was the nail in the coffin for future shipborne heli ops.
                .
                Just to be clear, the decision to have no heli deck on LE Roisin and LE Niamh was imposed by the Department. Frustratingly, during the WP process, the same Department asked why, if helos are so important in the maritime environment, do none of the new ships have helo capability? The same Department.

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                • Originally posted by Marius View Post
                  Just to be clear, the decision to have no heli deck on LE Roisin and LE Niamh was imposed by the Department. Frustratingly, during the WP process, the same Department asked why, if helos are so important in the maritime environment, do none of the new ships have helo capability? The same Department.
                  Odd that the design was modified from a ship that had a helideck...
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Marius View Post
                    Just to be clear, the decision to have no heli deck on LE Roisin and LE Niamh was imposed by the Department. Frustratingly, during the WP process, the same Department asked why, if helos are so important in the maritime environment, do none of the new ships have helo capability? The same Department.
                    These chancers need to be called out.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                      These chancers need to be called out.
                      As a PS worker, I have seen for myself that unfortunately they live by the rule "thats how we have always done it around here" and are reluctant to go with progress unless decreed from their superior mandarins. Truly frightening to witness first hand.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Each PS manager takes the lead from their immediate superior resting with the Sec/Gen who takes his lead from the Minister who gets his/her military advice from the CoS. Money was not an issue when the P50's were delivered and it would not be a surprise if a FOI request established that the NS got what it wanted.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by danno View Post
                          Next time the SAR contract is up have same under operational control of NS.
                          How would that work?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                            The Air Corps has a long history of basing helicopters in Army barracks and Camps for operational needs. The Alouettes based in Finner and Monaghan for over 30 years for border operational needs being the longest deployment. It was originally planned that once the Dauphins became operational ready for operating from LE Eithne that one of the two navalised variants would be based in Cork airport when not embarked. But by that time political interference over SAR saw a Dauphin been based in Waterford instead meaning no Dauphin available for Cork.

                            The Air Corps will base an aircraft anywhere were there is an operational need, but what is the operational need at Haulbowline today? The Naval Services decision to have no heli deck and hanger on LE Roisin and subsequently was the nail in the coffin for future shipborne heli ops. If there is an operational need for a heli deployment overseas and where there is no available land base then a ship could be the only option. But any future shipborne heli ops from a Naval Service ship could be a decade away.

                            The Air Corps now needs to restart training for operating from ships, its the norm for most armies and air forces to train in joint helicopter-ship ops. The Air Corps in the past carried out training landing Gazelles on the deck of Eithne. The Cypriots regularly carry out joint helicopter-ship training with their AW139's on the decks of ships from many nations and I've in the past posted videos of it on here. They have also carried out Medevacs from the decks of ships deployed with UNIFIL. There are many foreign naval ships that visit Ireland every year that would offer a great opportunity for training with both the EC135's and AW139's. Proficiency in shipboard heli ops should be a goal in the advancement of Air Corps capabilities for support of ARW ops, Medevacs, troop and equipment transfer, overseas ops etc.
                            In general your resume of Heli / Ship interface is interesting. we were happy to have a Gazelle land on and visit us on the Bridge. The redacting of the Naval Helicopter was assiduously planned by Air Corps interests to the final point where the Dauphines were disposed of through agencies to the Chilean navy, for use aboard their ships. Any naval future involving Helicopters must be purely a Naval development with rotary training carried out in an overseas Naval Helicopter Unit. Control, type and size would be an exclusive naval choice with NO input from non Naval departments or Directors.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                              How would that work?
                              The outputsof it would be a matter for contract wrt ATCA activities parallel to SAR, the outcome would be the NS getting a handle on heli-ops without the taxpayer having to fund an experiment and extra units.

                              Comment


                              • The navalisation of SAR helicopters for deck operations would lead to a increase in gross weight at the expense of fuel/range/survivors.

                                There is something to be said for seconding officers to the Air Corps to create a helicopter skillset within the Naval Service. This is something that would need to happen years in advance of any Naval helicopter ops and is probably something that could happen now without much cost.

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