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  1. #2326
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The organic decision/requirement within the NS is for a ship described as an MRV , on dimensions 130 meters x 20 meters x 5.2 meters, with helicopter deck facility. Helicopter decks, big enough, can land any size of helicopter compatible with those dimensions, provided the deck is also strong enough for a collapsed undercarriage landing. Any in service use of Helos, must be by the NS itself, after the P31 experience. Crewing is down to manning the ships Equipments especially in a man all stations situation. Automation of Defence CIWS systems is a help but in certain situations where stand to lasts beyond a rotation of watches," spares " may be needed to meet operational demands.
    HMS Forth OPV with an any console surveillance/FCS is heading to the Falklands. Has a 60 crew allocation with 36 on board at any one time. Can transport 50 troops has a range of weaponry mainly 30mm Auto plus two 7.62 134 mini guns plus 12.7mm's and lower caliber automatics. It seems she has a Commander in Command and puts the OPV fleet potentially at Nine, matching ourselves.

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  3. #2327
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    [QUOTE=ropebag;466185]
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post

    You mean 'it moves stuff to an austere disembarkation point'.

    Apart from the OPV element the functionality is exactly the same - and the RN have used the RFA's in the drugs interdiction role in the Caribbean and the counter piracy role off the Horn of Africa.

    The crux of the MRV/EPV/Whatever-the-hell-its-called-this-week is 'what do you want it to do?', and still there's no decision on whether it's an OPV with a couple of TEU's or a littoral logistics support ship with a flight deck you could see from the moon, a well deck and the ability to put a field hospital, a water purification and pumping station, an airfield control radar and fuel pumping system.

    It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it does.
    There we go. A vast disaster off East Africa involving former European colonies. There is an immediate need for disaster relief over a prolonged period with social and medical needs to the fore. A ship carrying and able to make potable water would be an asset. It takes one or two seasons of climatic disaster to prompt populations into believing they are living in the wrong place, thereby repeating the urge to migrate to Netflix land.

  4. #2328
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The NS knows what they want from the MRV

  5. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The NS knows what they want from the MRV
    And does 'Defence' know what it wants from an MRV in NS service, and how does that compare with what the NS wants?

    And what does the NS want from an MRV?

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  7. #2330
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    And does 'Defence' know what it wants from an MRV in NS service, and how does that compare with what the NS wants?

    And what does the NS want from an MRV?
    Sounds are good

  8. #2331
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    And does 'Defence' know what it wants from an MRV in NS service, and how does that compare with what the NS wants?

    And what does the NS want from an MRV?
    The MRV " will be enabled for helicopter operations and will also have a freight carrying capacity. It is the Governments intent that this new vessel will provide a flexible and adaptive capability for a wide range of maritime tasks both at home and overseas " White Paper.

  9. #2332
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The MRV " will be enabled for helicopter operations and will also have a freight carrying capacity. It is the Governments intent that this new vessel will provide a flexible and adaptive capability for a wide range of maritime tasks both at home and overseas " White Paper.
    So anything between a North Sea Barge, a Horizon class Frigate and a 20,000 ton LHD?

    Thats perfectly clear - I assume the dockyard will be cutting steel by the weekend....

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  11. #2333
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The NS knows what it wants and are fairly confident they will get support from a number of different departments, they didn’t go all the way to New Zealand for the crack, rather than the original mooted blue/green ship ... plan is this will be purple (ie joint)

  12. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The NS knows what it wants and are fairly confident they will get support from a number of different departments, they didn’t go all the way to New Zealand for the crack, rather than the original mooted blue/green ship ... plan is this will be purple (ie joint)
    So, do you know what the NS want, or are you just saying that they know what they want?

    Do you know if what the NS wants bares much relation to what the rest of Defence wants, or what the DoD wants, or what Coveney, Varadkar or Kehoe wants?

  13. #2335
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    Kehoe is happy as long as its based in Wexford, he's even picked out a spot in Enniscorthy.

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  15. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    So, do you know what the NS want, or are you just saying that they know what they want?

    Do you know if what the NS wants bares much relation to what the rest of Defence wants, or what the DoD wants, or what Coveney, Varadkar or Kehoe wants?
    The State (DF, DoD, Minister, the other Departments etc) know what they want... it’s a matter of time and funding .... the little that we were told was very positive.

    We won’t be putting a Bde across the beach with it but we won’t be stuck with a Frigate or OPV with 10 TEUs either

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  17. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The State (DF, DoD, Minister, the other Departments etc) know what they want... it’s a matter of time and funding .... the little that we were told was very positive.

    We won’t be putting a Bde across the beach with it but we won’t be stuck with a Frigate or OPV with 10 TEUs either
    Any penciled in idea for when the timing might fall due?

  18. #2338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Any penciled in idea for when the timing might fall due?
    When Gondor calls for aid, and Narnia answers?

  19. #2339
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    It is part of the NDP 2018-2027 but I’d say it will be the next major project that goes to tender

  20. #2340
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    So, do you know what the NS want, or are you just saying that they know what they want?

    Do you know if what the NS wants bares much relation to what the rest of Defence wants, or what the DoD wants, or what Coveney, Varadkar or Kehoe wants?
    a vessel based on San Giusto but keep dimensions within 125m X 19.25 beam and draft as required to meet operational loads- say landing spots for two ab 212 sized helos, space for up to 150 troops and equipment on wheels, two winched landing craft, and a winched patrol craft ( large RHIB), hospital and Disaster relief capability, decent water making plants, Defence capability OTO 76mm, 2 x 30mm, other positions for 12.7mm, combat radars and decoy system, missile defence system, ability to assist OPV's to stay on task by resupply of dry stores and liquids other than water. Wing ballast tanks not more than 1.25 meters wide to allow ballasting ,de-ballasting at sea. Try for at least 800 tonnes of ballast water in 6 tanks. Crew about 60 all ranks.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 26th March 2019 at 07:37.

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  22. #2341
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    a vessel based on San Giusto but keep dimensions within 125m X 19.25 beam and draft as required to meet operational loads- say landing spots for two ab 212 sized helos, space for up to 150 troops and equipment on wheels, two winched landing craft, and a winched patrol craft ( large RHIB), hospital and Disaster relief capability, decent water making plants, Defence capability OTO 76mm, 2 x 30mm, other positions for 12.7mm, combat radars and decoy system, missile defence system, ability to assist OPV's to stay on task by resupply of dry stores and liquids other than water. Wing ballast tanks not more than 1.25 meters wide to allow ballasting ,de-ballasting at sea. Try for at least 800 tonnes of ballast water in 6 tanks. Crew about 60 all ranks.
    I did suggest that Class about two years ago but was knocked back......n
    Time for another break I think......

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  24. #2342
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It is part of the NDP 2018-2027 but I’d say it will be the next major project that goes to tender
    Is that before the Casa Replacements or is that already handled?

  25. #2343
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I did suggest that Class about two years ago but was knocked back......n
    I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.

  26. #2344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Is that before the Casa Replacements or is that already handled?
    CASA replacement has gone to RFP stage and will subsequently go to RFT

    Brexit (as in increased demand) no doubt will influence it plus the fact that they are replacement (hopefully with additional capabilities) rather that completely new concepts for Irish Defence


    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.
    And crew size

    Imho it has to be capable of both
    Last edited by DeV; 27th March 2019 at 10:24.

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  28. #2345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.
    And cost factors will remain. There won't be much change from Eur400m for a new one-off build San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes at a Fincantieri yard even with the redesign to scale it down or deleting 16 cell VLS.

    Nevertheless, the San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes due to their taskgroup C2 role and better onboard ballast management can happily conduct blue water SLOC patrols, unlike the Canterbury which is purely an amphibious sealift ship.

  29. #2346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    And cost factors will remain. There won't be much change from Eur400m for a new one-off build San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes at a Fincantieri yard even with the redesign to scale it down or deleting 16 cell VLS.

    Nevertheless, the San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes due to their taskgroup C2 role and better onboard ballast management can happily conduct blue water SLOC patrols, unlike the Canterbury which is purely an amphibious sealift ship.
    Another good point, though if we were going for something like the San Giorgio would it make more sense to look at the variant that the Qataris are buying, not for them fitting Aster 30's and the radar system for them, but because it looks like they will redesign it for NH90 helicopters which would give a greater range of options for future purchases for the AC?

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  31. #2347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Another good point, though if we were going for something like the San Giorgio would it make more sense to look at the variant that the Qataris are buying, not for them fitting Aster 30's and the radar system for them, but because it looks like they will redesign it for NH90 helicopters which would give a greater range of options for future purchases for the AC?
    Once an agreed dimension has been decided and outline specifications for the ship have been put out to tender then builders proposals will come in to give a range of varietal choices. I would point out that the intention is a large air capable deck to facilitate operational requirements, and refueling of aircraft possibly BUT no AC involvement or provisions. Deck for Lilypad visits by any suitable aircraft.

  32. #2348
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Once an agreed dimension has been decided and outline specifications for the ship have been put out to tender then builders proposals will come in to give a range of varietal choices. I would point out that the intention is a large air capable deck to facilitate operational requirements, and refueling of aircraft possibly BUT no AC involvement or provisions. Deck for Lilypad visits by any suitable aircraft.
    Self-harming foolishness.

    Even if steel was cut tomorrow this vessel would still be in service in 2050. To deliberately inhibit what a ship could do for the next 30 years based on your predictions of what the AC will be capable of for the next 5 years is about as close to being as dumb as pork as it's possible for any creature with a functioning nervous system to be.

    A vessel with a 30 year service life needs to be so adaptable as to be almost a blank canvas.

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  34. #2349
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Self-harming foolishness.

    Even if steel was cut tomorrow this vessel would still be in service in 2050. To deliberately inhibit what a ship could do for the next 30 years based on your predictions of what the AC will be capable of for the next 5 years is about as close to being as dumb as pork as it's possible for any creature with a functioning nervous system to be.

    A vessel with a 30 year service life needs to be so adaptable as to be almost a blank canvas.
    What a stupid and nasty way to make a point .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  35. #2350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    What a stupid and nasty way to make a point .
    The point was made but so was mine based on past history. The last couple of decades of the operational life of P31 was to see her Helicopter designation deleted and the remaining Dauphins gracing the Chilean Navy. Shortly after completion of live helicopter trials, when CO was on leave ,a truck arrived from the Don to remove ships starting trolley and certain other tools. Fortunately the CO had popped in and after discussion the truck departed empty handed. Ships need to be run by sailors and all other interfaces and visits are either by invite or for operational tasks. A ship is not a tank or a truck and is also home to it's crew for a year or so.

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