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  1. #1
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    Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

    One of the Navy’s new £3 billion aircraft carriers will never carry aircraft and will sail for only three years before being mothballed and possibly sold, ministers will announce on Tuesday

    The Government’s Strategic Defence and Security Review will also confirm that Britain will not have an effective “carrier strike” capability – a working aircraft carrier equipped with fighter jets – until 2020.
    David Cameron had wanted to scrap one of the two carriers, the largest and most expensive vessels in British naval history, but the review found that contracts signed by the previous government meant that doing so would end up costing the taxpayer more than going ahead with both. As a result, the two carriers will enter service, but one will be mothballed as soon as possible.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...arry-jets.html

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    I wonder if the Argentinians are rubbing their hands at this news?

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    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    China / India / Singapore?

    Does this mean the F-35s to go with it are scrapped too?

  4. #4
    not dead yet ollie's Avatar
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    According to the BBC and Sky News, HMS Ark Royal will be decommisioned "almost immediatly" and not as planned in 2014. The surface fleet will be cut from 24 to 19 and the harriers will be axed too.

    The army is expected to lose about 7,000 pers and 100 or so tanks/heavy artillery.

    The new carriers are also to be designed so that other nations can use them.

    Announcements are expected around 3.30.
    Anyone need a spleen ?

  5. #5
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    i think its more the navalised F35 won't be ready when carriers come into service.

    silly idea getting rid of the harriers. better to keep them till as long as possible..if only for their unique VTOL capabilities. and they are a very capable fighter / attack aircraft. although different version the US marines aren't throwing theirs away any time soon.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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    Not quite Goldie - the RN has commited to buying the VTOL version of the F-35 - the 'B' model, meaning that the two new carriers would be effectively larger more expensive versions of the 'through deck cruisers' they currently use, ski ramp and all.

    The BBC has a different take, suggesting that the two carriers will be built and kept, but that one will be modified as a non V/STOL carrier, which would allow the RN to get back in to naval aviation in a 'real' sense, with aircraft comparable to what other countries use - particularly the French. The carriers were designed from the outset to be easily modified, so this is no great leap, and also keeps their options open with regard to purchasing different aircraft, should the F-35B fail to materialise, or become too expensive (both are real possibilities). The B model is limited in a number of ways - range and manouverability particularly, and the RAF would prefer the C model by some margin. An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.

    The Telegraph is the only one with story about two of the new carriers being mothballed - suppose we'll have to wait until this afternoon to see the outcome. The Harriers are a loss to the RN, but only in terms of status in the short term - in reality they're a very limited platform. The only real advantage is that they allow a modicum of fast jet performance from relatively small ships.

  7. #7
    Private 3* Jungle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The Falklands should be returning to Argentina any day now.
    I doubt this will happen as long as Argentina remains a democracy.
    It could happen as a result of diplomatic negociations, but I doubt the UK and Falklanders are ready to go that way.
    "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

    Never give up!!"

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    Would a negotiated return of the islands, for economic reasons, be a possiblity?
    In short, no. And particularly given the fact that recent oil exploration seems to have been quietly positive.

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    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    I'd say that keeping the falklands would be priority given to the natural resources in the area as well as a spring board to Antarctica when a possible exploitation conflict opens up!

  10. #10
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Not quite Goldie - the RN has commited to buying the VTOL version of the F-35 - the 'B' model, meaning that the two new carriers would be effectively larger more expensive versions of the 'through deck cruisers' they currently use, ski ramp and all.

    The BBC has a different take, suggesting that the two carriers will be built and kept, but that one will be modified as a non V/STOL carrier, which would allow the RN to get back in to naval aviation in a 'real' sense, with aircraft comparable to what other countries use - particularly the French. The carriers were designed from the outset to be easily modified, so this is no great leap, and also keeps their options open with regard to purchasing different aircraft, should the F-35B fail to materialise, or become too expensive (both are real possibilities). The B model is limited in a number of ways - range and manouverability particularly, and the RAF would prefer the C model by some margin. An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.

    The Telegraph is the only one with story about two of the new carriers being mothballed - suppose we'll have to wait until this afternoon to see the outcome. The Harriers are a loss to the RN, but only in terms of status in the short term - in reality they're a very limited platform. The only real advantage is that they allow a modicum of fast jet performance from relatively small ships.
    The RN/FAA hasn't had Harriers for a number of years, the Harriers belong to the RAF (as part of Joint Force Harrier) with pilots coming from the RAF and RN/FAA.

    Can the F-35B operate from a ski jump? The vektoring is very different from the Harrier.

    A VSTOL aircraft carrier should be cheaper than a CTOL carrier but the aircraft are more expensive... a CTOL carrier & aircraft would be cheaper in the long run.

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  12. #11
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.
    There's still a chance that the RN might opt out of the F35 completely and buy F18s or similar. The big advantage of going F18 would be that they could send people over to the US Navy and have pilots and support personnel trained up and ready to go as soon as the airframes arrive (which would be a lot sooner than any F35s will show up)

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    There's still a chance that the RN might opt out of the F35 completely and buy F18s or similar
    Very much. This has been alluded to repeatedly by the UK Govt (and the previous one), and veiled references to the Rafale have been made in some quarters also (as have references to 'navalising' the Typhoon - probably very difficult). It would give them more capable aircraft, and inter operablity with other forces. USN and French aircraft have cross decked on a number of occasions recently. Must really annoy the RN to have to watch that and not be able to join the party.

    The RN/FAA hasn't had Harriers for a number of years, the Harriers belong to the RAF (as part of Joint Force Harrier) with pilots coming from the RAF and RN/FAA.
    Which is what I said - with the loss of the Harrier, the RN lose 'their' entire fast jet inventory, the RAF still have much of theirs. In reality, the writing was on the wall when the Sea Harriers went, and they lost the AIM-120 capacity. And yes, from memory, the purpose of the ski jump on the new carriers was to increase the payload/range figures for the F-35B, so they'll work with it.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    In short, no. And particularly given the fact that recent oil exploration seems to have been quietly positive.
    Doesn't matter how much there is there, if the argentinians object, and are backed by Brazil, then the british won't see any benefit from it.

    Jungle rightly point out that Argentina is a democracy, and has been for quite some time.

  15. #14
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...wPublished.htm

    The devil is in the detail (some of this is inferred (?):

    The new carriers will routinely carry only 12 JSFs, they are designed to carry up to 50 aircraft.

    The options on 2 Type 45 destroyers will not be exercised.

    3 more Astute SSNs are on the way

    Ark Royal will be discommissioned (2 years ahead of schedule), this will still leave the RN with 2 carriers (1 of which is currently in reserve). A decision will be made on if Ocean or Illustrious will be decommissioned (and put the other one into "extended readiness"). Ocean is new and specifically designed as a helicopter carrier

    Decommisson 4 frigates and a Bay class amphibious support ship (the oldest was taken into service 4 years ago).

    The army will lose one of its six all arms brigade (16 Air Aslt is safe). The remainder will be reorganised as multi-role (mix of armoured, mechanised & light role?).

    One of the operational Divisional HQs will be reduced (but capable of regeneration / "force perparation")

    The UK will remain the leader of ARRC but support units will be reduced.

    No combat units involved in Afganistan will be effected (until after the withdrawal).

    Challenger 2 holdings reduced by 40%.

    Heavy artillery holdings reduced by 35%.

    The regional divisons and brigades will the significantly reduced.

    Eurofighter, Tornado & JSF (operated jointly with RN/FAA) are safe in the RAF, as are AWACS, Rivet Joint, UAVs, A300 FSTA (replacing VC-10 and Tristar from 2013) and C-17. The Hercules will be withdrawn (10 years earlier than planned) and replaced with A400M. Harrier will be withdrawn.

    The support helicopter force (RAF & RN) will be based on Chinook & Merlin (end of Sea King and Puma?).

    RAF Regiment force protection squadrons & CBRN contribution are safe.

    Sentinel will be withdrawn when no longer needs in Afghanistan

    There will be RAF & RN base closures.

    The Nimrod MRA4 will not be brought into service (the MR2s may be retained?).

    The reserves will be studied.

    Redundancies for service personnel.

  16. #15
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The new carriers will routinely carry only 12 JSFs, they are designed to carry up to 50 aircraft.

    Waste of Money.Sets it up nicely for leasing them out. France have been set up as the prime target for this going back to early this year.

    If the RN is reduced to 19 hulls in the water it has effectively been written off.


    and put the other one into "extended readiness").
    For extended readiness read up for sale at the earliest convenience.

    as have references to 'navalising' the Typhoon - probably very difficult
    Not even a option!


    China / India
    India are already ahead in that race having acquired a a carrier from Russia as are the Chinese....

    Brazil could be an option as they are on the rise with Naval aviation.

    But with the loss of other surface units you can't even field a battle group so why bother at all.

    RN is finished as a credible fighting force being reduced to one of a defence force rather than one of force projection.
    Just visiting

  17. #16
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    we (the British Army) did OK out of it, not as bad as some had expected or made out.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  18. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    we (the British Army) did OK out of it, not as bad as some had expected or made out.
    You do realise you are losing in effect 16% of your fighting power (1 brigade)!



    I've just gone through the complete document (some of this my contradict my previous post):


    The new army brigades will have around 6500 personnel, and will be able to operate over all the spectrum of ops, they will be self-supporting (and will have TA personnel integrated into them).

    One of the operational divisions will be downgraded and used to prepare/train personnel for the operational division (and the temporary 6 Division will be closed).

    The 4 regenerative divisions will be merged into a UK Support Command (and at least 2 of the 10 regional brigade HQs will be closed).

    Around 1/3 of the Typhoons (upgraded with improved air-to-ground capability) & JSFs will be held at high readiness. A reduced number of JSFs will be purchased.

    7 x C17 will be retained with 22 x A400M and up to 14 A330 FSTAs (replacing the Tristar & VC10). Hercules will be withdrawn by 2022. Sentinel will be withdrawn once Afganistan is over. Nimrod MRA4 will not be brought into service (other martime assets will undertake its task).

    The size of the SF will be maintained and support capabilities increased.

    All foreign training installations and bases will be maintained. All forces will be withdrawn from Germany by 2020 (half by 2015).

    Tornado will be retained in reduced numbers for a transitional period.

    Additional medical staff and better mental healthcare facilties.

    Defence Support Group and Marchwood Sea Mounting Centre will be sold. Both Portsmouth and Devonport will be maintained but with changes. RAF Kinloss (and 2 unnamed bases) will be closed.

    The armour & artillery withdrawn from Germany will be withdrawn (although the capability will be able to be regained)

    An additional 12 Chinooks to be purchased, Puma's life will be extended and Wildcat will replace Lynx.

    3 Cdo Bde is safe

    There will be 1 operational carrier (it looks as if at any one time), it will be fitted with cataplut, normally 12 but up to 36 JSFs on board.

    The UK will only purchase 1 variant of JSF (for use from land and carrier) and it will be the CTOL naval variant.

    The Vanguards will only carry up to 8 missiles (not the current 12) and the warheads will be reduced from 48 to 40 per sub (160 to 120 operational in total). The Vanuards will be replaced by the decision will be deferred to 2016.

    The fleet will consist of Type 45 destroyers and Type 23 frigates (to be replaced by Type 26). These will operate Merlin and Wildcat helicopters. There will be 14 MCMVs (based on the Sandown and Hunt class their replacements will also be capable of survey, patrol etc). Endurance and oceangraphy capability will be maintained.

    Harrier will be withdrawn.

    FRES etc will go ahead.

  19. #18
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    yes Dev i know what we are losing - we had a scale A briefing today from our OC at 1600hrs stating the changes.

    but it's shake up that will leave us more effective and better focussed.

    we have been structured for conventional warfare unnecessarily for too long, but this SDSR will leave us in a better stance to fight asymmetrically.

    the remaining Brigades by default will have a better capability and we can develop and train more effectively.

    we are already some of the best equipped troops in the world and we will continue to be so. much of the mess we are in now is a legacy of poor decisions by the Labour government.

    obviously i'd rather not have any cut in manpower in the Army but losing 7,000 by 2015 is easily done through natural wastage and more stringent filtering of those who are MND (Medically Non-Deployable).

    we discussed the review at length today with our OC and the general feeling is that some of the changes are necessary and we really didn't do too badly at all.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

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  20. #19
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    At 1600 we would be heading down to the locker room to get into civies
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  21. #20
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    At 1600 we would be heading down to the locker room to get into civies
    why would you be getting into civvies?

    wouldn't you be allowed and proud to wear your uniform home?!
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

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  22. #21
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Anybody read todays Kevin Myers?

    At this moment, an aircraft carrier is being built in Glasgow, the first of two for the Royal Navy. It has no steam-catapults, and so cannot launch any airborne early-warning planes of its own. Its aircraft will be American, vertical landing F-35Bs, which the Americans bitterly regret embarking upon and want to cancel. If they do, the British will have a multi-billion pound aircraft carrier without any aircraft.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  23. #22
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    In fairness while they might be wasting £3 Billion, how much did Ireland waste on banks this year? €40 Billion?

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Anybody read todays Kevin Myers?
    He's a bit off the mark on a few points:

    1. The aircraft carriers are powered by gas turbines, so they wouldn't have the steam for steam catapults. Any catapults fitted in the future will probably be electro-magnetic, a new technology for this purpose.

    2. The Royal Navy does not have any fixed-wing AEW aircraft at the moment: a Sea King helicopter is used for airborne early warning.

    3. The Strategic Defence and Security Review announced today states that the F-35B STOVL aircraft will not be bought, but instead the UK will buy the conventional carrier version, the F-35C (the US Navy version rather than the one for the US Marines).

  25. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    we have been structured for conventional warfare unnecessarily for too long, but this SDSR will leave us in a better stance to fight asymmetrically.
    So long as the all arms capability is maintained! Remember there are still conventional battles! Other countries have used heavy armour in Afghanistan to good effect.

    the remaining Brigades by default will have a better capability and we can develop and train more effectively.
    Hopefully but wasn't that what FAS was suppose to do?

    obviously i'd rather not have any cut in manpower in the Army but losing 7,000 by 2015 is easily done through natural wastage and more stringent filtering of those who are MND (Medically Non-Deployable).
    As so a recruitment ban until 2015 so, the document says redundanies (again!).

  26. #25
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Loss in capacity to conduct anti piracy operations?

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