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Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

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  • #16
    we (the British Army) did OK out of it, not as bad as some had expected or made out.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
      we (the British Army) did OK out of it, not as bad as some had expected or made out.
      You do realise you are losing in effect 16% of your fighting power (1 brigade)!



      I've just gone through the complete document (some of this my contradict my previous post):


      The new army brigades will have around 6500 personnel, and will be able to operate over all the spectrum of ops, they will be self-supporting (and will have TA personnel integrated into them).

      One of the operational divisions will be downgraded and used to prepare/train personnel for the operational division (and the temporary 6 Division will be closed).

      The 4 regenerative divisions will be merged into a UK Support Command (and at least 2 of the 10 regional brigade HQs will be closed).

      Around 1/3 of the Typhoons (upgraded with improved air-to-ground capability) & JSFs will be held at high readiness. A reduced number of JSFs will be purchased.

      7 x C17 will be retained with 22 x A400M and up to 14 A330 FSTAs (replacing the Tristar & VC10). Hercules will be withdrawn by 2022. Sentinel will be withdrawn once Afganistan is over. Nimrod MRA4 will not be brought into service (other martime assets will undertake its task).

      The size of the SF will be maintained and support capabilities increased.

      All foreign training installations and bases will be maintained. All forces will be withdrawn from Germany by 2020 (half by 2015).

      Tornado will be retained in reduced numbers for a transitional period.

      Additional medical staff and better mental healthcare facilties.

      Defence Support Group and Marchwood Sea Mounting Centre will be sold. Both Portsmouth and Devonport will be maintained but with changes. RAF Kinloss (and 2 unnamed bases) will be closed.

      The armour & artillery withdrawn from Germany will be withdrawn (although the capability will be able to be regained)

      An additional 12 Chinooks to be purchased, Puma's life will be extended and Wildcat will replace Lynx.

      3 Cdo Bde is safe

      There will be 1 operational carrier (it looks as if at any one time), it will be fitted with cataplut, normally 12 but up to 36 JSFs on board.

      The UK will only purchase 1 variant of JSF (for use from land and carrier) and it will be the CTOL naval variant.

      The Vanguards will only carry up to 8 missiles (not the current 12) and the warheads will be reduced from 48 to 40 per sub (160 to 120 operational in total). The Vanuards will be replaced by the decision will be deferred to 2016.

      The fleet will consist of Type 45 destroyers and Type 23 frigates (to be replaced by Type 26). These will operate Merlin and Wildcat helicopters. There will be 14 MCMVs (based on the Sandown and Hunt class their replacements will also be capable of survey, patrol etc). Endurance and oceangraphy capability will be maintained.

      Harrier will be withdrawn.

      FRES etc will go ahead.

      Comment


      • #18
        yes Dev i know what we are losing - we had a scale A briefing today from our OC at 1600hrs stating the changes.

        but it's shake up that will leave us more effective and better focussed.

        we have been structured for conventional warfare unnecessarily for too long, but this SDSR will leave us in a better stance to fight asymmetrically.

        the remaining Brigades by default will have a better capability and we can develop and train more effectively.

        we are already some of the best equipped troops in the world and we will continue to be so. much of the mess we are in now is a legacy of poor decisions by the Labour government.

        obviously i'd rather not have any cut in manpower in the Army but losing 7,000 by 2015 is easily done through natural wastage and more stringent filtering of those who are MND (Medically Non-Deployable).

        we discussed the review at length today with our OC and the general feeling is that some of the changes are necessary and we really didn't do too badly at all.
        RGJ

        ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

        The Rifles

        Comment


        • #19
          At 1600 we would be heading down to the locker room to get into civies
          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          Are full of passionate intensity.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
            At 1600 we would be heading down to the locker room to get into civies
            why would you be getting into civvies?

            wouldn't you be allowed and proud to wear your uniform home?!
            RGJ

            ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

            The Rifles

            Comment


            • #21
              Anybody read todays Kevin Myers?

              At this moment, an aircraft carrier is being built in Glasgow, the first of two for the Royal Navy. It has no steam-catapults, and so cannot launch any airborne early-warning planes of its own. Its aircraft will be American, vertical landing F-35Bs, which the Americans bitterly regret embarking upon and want to cancel. If they do, the British will have a multi-billion pound aircraft carrier without any aircraft.
              'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
              'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
              Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
              He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
              http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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              • #22
                In fairness while they might be wasting £3 Billion, how much did Ireland waste on banks this year? €40 Billion?
                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                  Anybody read todays Kevin Myers?
                  He's a bit off the mark on a few points:

                  1. The aircraft carriers are powered by gas turbines, so they wouldn't have the steam for steam catapults. Any catapults fitted in the future will probably be electro-magnetic, a new technology for this purpose.

                  2. The Royal Navy does not have any fixed-wing AEW aircraft at the moment: a Sea King helicopter is used for airborne early warning.

                  3. The Strategic Defence and Security Review announced today states that the F-35B STOVL aircraft will not be bought, but instead the UK will buy the conventional carrier version, the F-35C (the US Navy version rather than the one for the US Marines).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                    we have been structured for conventional warfare unnecessarily for too long, but this SDSR will leave us in a better stance to fight asymmetrically.
                    So long as the all arms capability is maintained! Remember there are still conventional battles! Other countries have used heavy armour in Afghanistan to good effect.

                    the remaining Brigades by default will have a better capability and we can develop and train more effectively.
                    Hopefully but wasn't that what FAS was suppose to do?

                    obviously i'd rather not have any cut in manpower in the Army but losing 7,000 by 2015 is easily done through natural wastage and more stringent filtering of those who are MND (Medically Non-Deployable).
                    As so a recruitment ban until 2015 so, the document says redundanies (again!).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Loss in capacity to conduct anti piracy operations?
                      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        HMS Illustrious
                        HMS Cumberland
                        HMS Campbeltown
                        HMS Chatham
                        HMS Cornwall

                        All have proven their worth in the past 3 years conducting successful Anti-Piracy Operations in the Gulf/Indian Ocean.

                        HMS Liverpool
                        HMS Manchester
                        HMS Gloucester
                        HMS Edinburgh
                        HMS York

                        Over the past 14 years have intercepted over £100 Million worth of drugs alone.
                        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Goldie fish
                          Ships to go, according to seawaves:

                          HMS Ark Royal R 07 Decomm TBA

                          HMS Illustrious R 08 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Cumberland F 85 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Campbeltown F 86 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Chatham F 87 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Cornwall F 99 Decomm TBA
                          RFA TBA Bay Class L 3... Decomm TBA
                          HMS Liverpool D 92 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Manchester D 95 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Gloucester D 96 Decomm TBA
                          HMS Edinburgh D 97 Decomm TBA
                          HMS York D 98 Decomm TBA
                          HMS TBA MCM M??? Decomm TBA

                          Thats a big capability loss. The frigates and destroyers are the workhorses of the fleet, and they aren't being replaced on a 1 for 1 basis. The new frigate programme isn't even on the drawing board yet..
                          The Type 42s (the 5 vessels if "D" pennant numbers above, 1 has already been decommissioned I think) are being replaced by 6 x Type 45s (a much more capable vessel when its main weapon is operational), it was to be up to 8. These vessels were being discommissioned anyway and are being replaced on a 1-for-1 basis.

                          They are getting rid of the Type 22s (if memory serves there was 4 left, these are vessels based on a design that was served in the Falklands (the 4 vessels if "F" pennant numbers above)) - these won't be replaced. The Type 23 (built with the lessons learnt from the Falklands) will be replaced by Type 26 in the future (these are fairly modern vessels anyway so that decision will not need to be taken for a while.

                          Having said that a hull can't be in 2 places at once.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                            HMS Illustrious
                            HMS Cumberland
                            HMS Campbeltown
                            HMS Chatham
                            HMS Cornwall

                            All have proven their worth in the past 3 years conducting successful Anti-Piracy Operations in the Gulf/Indian Ocean.

                            HMS Liverpool
                            HMS Manchester
                            HMS Gloucester
                            HMS Edinburgh
                            HMS York

                            Over the past 14 years have intercepted over £100 Million worth of drugs alone.
                            That doesn't mean that there replacement won't be able to, assuming they keep a vessel in the Indian Ocean and Carribean.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thats a big capability loss.
                              Essentially, the RN has paid with it's frigates and destroyers to keep the carrier programme. That's a clear and rationale strategic choice, and one that's entirely in keeping with the themes of SDR, the UK has long given up on it's empire, or on having a 'global presence'; instead they're focusing more on mission specific forces that can actually deploy, and play a serious role in major conflicts. In naval terms, they will still have just about enough surface vessels to have two carrier groups at sea (providing they keep both carriers), and to defend them against the vast majority of likely threats - they can basically project power in a real and meaningful way to help deliver on the UKs startegic objectives. That's not a capacity to be sniffed at, and it keeps them in the first order of naval powers in a way that a rake of Type 22s and Type 42s cannot, despite the fact that it will reduce their ability to have ships to fly the flag in all corners of the world.

                              In the light of any future EU CFSP, this is also a good thing - there are plenty of EU countries that can put Frigates (or Mine countermeasure vessels, or PVs - hint, hint ) in the water, but very few that can field flat top carriers with 'proper' CATOBAR aircraft. Flat tops can also operate proper AEW aircraft, which have a vastly better performance than the Merlin based design that has been mooted in the past, and would be a major force multiplier for any fleet.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Goldie fish
                                What you forget dev is, the remaining type 42 are the last of a much greater number. Over 10 years, there was a total of 14 built. Coventry and Sheffield were lost during the Falklands war, Birmingham was scrapped in 1999. But Glasgow, Newcastle, Cardiff, Exeter, Southampton and Nottingham were only decomissioned between 2008 and February this year. These are the ships the Type 45 replaced. So it isnt 1 for 1 it is 1 for 2.
                                Those were all decommissioned as part of previous cuts having said that they were options on 2.


                                The Type 26 is still only in the sketch stage. They aren't expected to see water until 2020 at the earliest. Type 23, thirteen remaining, will have to struggle on until then. Assuming they don't sell them to chile or brazil first of course. The commenced service in 1990.
                                The Type 26 is the medium-long term replacement (what they have said is that the fleet will consist of Type 45 and Type 26 (I would assume they will keep Type 23 until it is replaced), the Type 23 vessel is very capable and I think the newest of vessels of the type/class).







                                Originally posted by Aidan View Post
                                In naval terms, they will still have just about enough surface vessels to have two carrier groups at sea (providing they keep both carriers), and to defend them against the vast majority of likely threats - they can basically project power in a real and meaningful way to help deliver on the UKs startegic objectives.
                                They will only have 1 operational carrier and from reading the review it looks like a amphibious task group.

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